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Thread: Cydia Acquires Rock.app

  1. #321
    For context to this post, see my original post here:
    http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-news...ml#post5452243
    And Saurik's reply, here:
    http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-news...ml#post5452499

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Twitter does not allow users to direct message people who do not follow them: I do not have any control over this.
    I understand this, but this is the first time I've ever gotten a response from you. I'm really surprised I did and you addressed my questions! Thank you for that - seriously, I feel honored. It's my personal opinion that Cydia should have a forum of its' own for hashing out problems with the occasional chime-in from you. That forum could have moderators who could then bring actual bugs and things of importance to your attention. Don't post your email and phone number and then get mad when the whole world calls you because they're using your very successful product. Do what everyone does - create a support system. I would gladly help you moderate if it helped Cydia as a whole get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    APT does not support refreshing individual sources. This is one of those "lines in the sand": I will not reimplement APT in a way I can't merge back to the APT developers, as everyone else who has done so has caused horrible installation bugs.
    I am not asking to refresh individual sources. You have a mechanism for adding and removing sources already, which means there is a master source list that gets refreshed. I am asking to be able to remove sources from that master list, but keep the entries there for addition back, later. In this way they are removed from the pool that is being refreshed, but not eliminated from Cydia, and can be 're-enabled' in the future. This is possible - I've done it myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Click Modify, now click Clear.
    This either does nothing, or clears the entire queue.. not the single item in question. Try it.

    For example, if you have 3 updates, hit update all, then Cancel > Continue Queuing. Pick one of the updates, and hit Modify, Clear. Here, it still appears in the install list. Hit Cancel > Continue Queuing. It STILL appears in the install list. I just tried this exact scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    This has been fixed in trunk but is considered a minor bug and is being rolled into a larger bundle of updates that will be coming soon.
    Awesome, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    [on the subject of having a force install / remove option] If you know enough to do this you know enough to use dpkg.
    What is Cydia, really? It's a GUI for dpkg and apt. Does that mean I should just avoid it entirely and use commandline tools? The point here is ease of use. It's not your problem if someone f's up their phone because you gave them too much control.. jailbreaking does that by definition. Don't be what Jobs is.

    One of the first things you ask when installing Cydia is 'What are you?'. Sure, you only use it to determine what packages are hidden, but it could also allow additional options like force installation and removal. This would solve a lot of the issues with Cydia, even though it goes against your 'complete correctness' values. I get that and support it, but the problem is repo's and packages are not always correct and you CANNOT expect them to be. You can't. If you do, that's poor support, allowing a single repo to make the entire Cydia experience terrible. Again, being able to temporarily 'disable' repos would also help here. Anyone saying "complaining about Cydia errors is like complaining about Safari rending bad code on a web page" is retarded. Why? Because SAFARI DOESN'T LOAD EVERY PAGE ON THE INTERNET AT ONCE AND THEN FAIL TO LET YOU VIEW ANYTHING IF ONE OF THEM IS CODED INCORRECTLY!

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    This is the first time I have heard this specific complaint. For the specific case of "package downloaded fails to download" (as opposed to "installation failed") this can probably be fixed: in specific, a "reload data" should not be performed in case of a download failure. I believe this can be rolled into the next update.
    Yes, it's usually due to a package not downloading, but not installing should be the same deal. Overlapping files, whatever. Skip the package and continue with the rest. Downloading then installing each package individually (maybe even with the option to cancel the queue if an error arises, or FORCE the install/remove action) would be the best solution IMO. You could even include the ability to 'save' and 'edit' a queue later if something fails, or even back up your entire installed packages list for reinstallation on a separate device. This would negate the need for things like PkgBackup - which does what I'm talking about btw, and ignores bad or missing packages.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    This would require a lot of work and new knowledge on behalf of the repositories...
    I know, but you run the app man. Changing how that sh!t works and notifying them on how to fix is your responsibility if you want to make your app user friendly. If their themes no longer show up, they will be forced to make the change. You could even force them to run that script if you wanted. Make change happen man.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    It is not possible for Cydia to somehow fix a really really broken package installation: your entire system is now in a fried state, and you need to restore.
    No, the system is not fried. An example of this scenario is a package that tries to modify a file installed in another package. It gets stuck in the installation queue somehow, and everytime I try to even remove the package it's conflicting with, that first install gets run from cache and prevents the queue from continuing. The only way to fix it is to go manually run a dpkg uninstallation. A 'normal' user would not know how to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    As for broken .list files, did you report that issue to the repository? I have tried to make APT resilient against corrupt repositories (it is not by default), but may very well have failed. That said, this may have been before I released those changes 6-7 months ago? Regardless, I'd rather just fix the APT list parser to not require this.
    Yes, this is post-update. Even current version. When I say broken .list files, I'm talking about even doing something like adding just "http://" as a source. Completely buggers up Cydia and produces errors about the source not refreshing every time I perform a refresh. The entry does not appear in 'Sources' to remove, and I have to try and manually remove it from all of Cydia's .lists and other areas like cached app installations and change caches. We need a 'blow it all away and restart' button. I have fixed it myself by deleting all .lists, blowing away the changes cache, and then blowing away any cached installations or partials. Took me days to figure out how to do all that.


    To recap, my entire ideas for changes list:
    - Ability to 'disable' repos from refreshing, without completely removing them.
    - Ability to remove a single item from the install queue without removing all of them. This is probably a bug.
    - Ability to manually 'hide' an app update from appearing at the top of Changes, but allow installation later if you want. (like Windows Update)
    - During a multi-item installation queue, do not fail all items if one does not download or doesn't install correctly. Continue, or present the user with cancel/force options.
    - Allow self-defined "power users" to force install/remove actions if an error occurs.
    - Separate themes from apps somehow.. maybe even remove them from Cydia entirely, and work a Store / Package Mangement system into Winterboard itself? Up to you to force a revolution on how themes are displayed here.
    - Reset tool which wipes the changes list, resets sources to defaults, removes any pending packages from the AutoInstall queue. (Effectively, reset Cydia to out-of-box conditions, except for the 'installed packages' dbase.)
    Last edited by reanimationxp; 2010-09-13 at 12:55 AM.
    Anybody want a 32GB Mint Condition Black JB Unlocked 3GS? PM me with offers.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    You are not supposed to be contacting me: your relationship is with your repository, not with me. So, please do not stalk me.

    Cydia's payment servers provide raw database dumps of live sales data, as well as a cool retarget-able chart. Meanwhile, Cydia is really designed to be setup "for the enterprise", and provides reverse-APIs (you implement a server, I provide example code) by which developers can have complete control over the payment and licensing process for their applications (such as for giving free copies or for integrating payments from their own website into the ecosystem).

    Seriously: you should fire your repository for not telling you about these features. For the record, every developer/artist who has complained about Cydia's feature set on this thread uses ModMyi, and every developer who has defended me uses BigBoss. Meanwhile, I keep getting sent more and more themes from ModMyi, which I'm really hesitant to approve if this is the kind of support they are going to be getting. I normally try to stay neutral in these issues, but really: this is ludicrous; if I am going to have the relationship with the developer I'm also going to host their damned packages for them.

    For what it is worth, I agree with you here. It was my intention that the featured themes section was something that repositories would have a vested interest in maintaining, but that never actually worked out. I, myself, do use many themes, so I do not attempt to curate the list of featured themes. Meanwhile, every artist thinks their theme is awesome and deserves to be on that list, so I can't trust any of them to help me with it.

    As for paid themes, I have purposely not been "rocking the boat" in Cydia while I finish negotiating with Rock. One of the goals is that, by the end of this transition period, I will have replaced the interface in Cydia for browsing paid products to a) include all products and b) have some mechanism for seeing themes (and to the millions of people who wish themes didn't exist: just don't click this button).
    Thank you! I am feeling much more comfortable about the forthcoming transition now that u have taken the time to explain and address all of my/our concerns. I understand you can't please everyone and there has been a lot of confusion due to not knowing where, why and how. In short, if we all continue to work together as a community and as developers, I know there will be a very positive future in store for everyone. Like ebony and ivory, living in perfect harmony!

    Now, where are you right now? I'm looking through your front window!

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  4. #323
    Former Owner / Founder of ModMyi Kyle Matthews's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeApple View Post
    He is not just paying for upkeeping fees bro hwe is riding in a lambo! Are you serious? He prolly makes 5-10k a month easy off just being the main hosgt with the most!
    This is my favorite quote of the thread so far.

    That's like... the PAYMENT on a Lambo.
    .


    ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A [select] [start] Kyle Matthews

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  6. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    This is my favorite quote of the thread so far.

    That's like... the PAYMENT on a Lambo.
    True.

    Lets take the cheapest model which is $198K. If he is making 6K a month and say he has about 1K in living expenses a month then it will take him at least 4 years if his skips out on taxes and has no interest on the payments to pay for it.

  7. #325
    Owner / Founder - ModMyi
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    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    So, I've failed to go to sleep yet, partly because Kyle woke up, and I'm talking to him now. There was some serious miscommunication regarding this that I am willing to say was largely my fault, and I think things are going to work a lot better with regards to this particular set of issues and the Cydia Store going forward (and in fact have apparently already been fixed from the times that many of these developers in this thread were registered, which is yet another miscommunication). ;P (Yay!)
    good

  8. #326
    yeah its the payment ....you know i was being sarcastic.....comon you guys front like a a girl with a fat ***...... you cant bull **** a bullshitter and cant hustle a huslter.....=p

    last words now everybody can bash my opinion and thoughts now I stick to my thoughts and know I just said what a lot of ppl want to say but dont have the kahonies too say =)

    Iam by far an ******* ...I just have a bad taste in my mouth about Cydia not Suarik...sorry please do not let one thread about a sincere topic let you decypher what type of person I am exspecially when you knew this topic was going to be contraverial
    Last edited by FreeApple; 2010-09-13 at 01:47 AM.

  9. #327
    Well I'm a dev so I'm moving my stuff offer soon. Please welcome me to Cydia

  10. #328
    Freeapple you make me laugh

    I don't know what you are talking about half the time.

    Latest Project: iEvo HD4 TrueHD iPhone4 theme. ~~~ Click Donate to support my theme's!

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  12. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by TCcentex View Post
    ..as for MY FRIEND Free, his concerns are extremely legitimate. Although he's a relatively new themer his work is absolutely amazing -- his theme was given a lot of attention on Rock because it deserved it and the resulting, well-deserved economic windfall he received has helped he and his family more than you will ever know. He is a perfect example of a Dev that would be completely lost amid all the poo-poo currently on Cydia with little to no exposure under the current Cydia Store setup. Maybe to you he's not as articulate as some others, but his points are right on.
    And yet, all of his comments make no sense, from his insistence that Cydia can somehow block piracy on an open platform (with claims that Rock somehow /did/) to a belief that now that Rock and I are cooperating on the ecosystem somehow all of Rock's features, features FreeApple himself seem to believe caused more sales (which would therefore be good for me to implement, as they make me more money, right?) are now not going to be implemented (despite specific political explanations I have provided for why those very things have not changed recently, as well as information on the future roadmap), with culmination on a specific silly grievance regarding the lag time to posting a product in the Cydia Store (which is incredibly variable based on what repository you use, as each has different ways of trying to get me different information on the vendors and then provides different levels of support to those vendors; BigBoss averages at 2-3 days, for example, and MacCiti seems to have figured out a way to get nearly instantaneous approvals, which baffles even me; Rock's 7 days seems way too long, actually).

    Quote Originally Posted by paganizonda83 View Post
    Again, it is my understanding that there was a bit of miscommunication between Saurik and Kyle, which Saurik openly admitted was a large part his fault and apologized for.
    And I will reiterate that. I think my most important priority after this transition period is going to be to make a more clear and unified set of mechanisms for repositories to handle listing paid packages in the Cydia Store, as I have apparently caused a lot of confusion between the different repositories because of how this has been handled in the past (which relied on a lot of implied understanding about who had what relationship with whom).
    Last edited by saurik; 2010-09-13 at 02:44 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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  14. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by ne0nlitez View Post
    so wait, are we going to be able to use the rock style installer still? im confused lol. cydia sucks hardcore :
    God I hope so. All respect to Saurik but the Rock installer is > Cydia by boatloads. I cringe every time I have to load Cydia...

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  16. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Halten77 View Post
    Guys, RipDev the creator of the Icy APT installer, ceased their installer on 2010. They left the source code for the installer and said he would be happy if someone took over the project. So if you're dissapointed by this and hate cydia, get up and if you know coding, complete and be the new owner of the Icy installer. Official link to their Source Code: ripdev's Icy at master - GitHub

    i would be happy if someone revived Icy.
    For the record (and I understand you were not making this point): Icy (like Rock) did not use APT; the developers seemed to believe that complex package inter-dependencies simply did not exist, and therefore did not even attempt to model them correctly. For example, it simply did not support Provides:, which meant I had a continual flood of e-mail from users regarding "I can't install this core package" (which I think would now-a-days include WinterBoard, but at the time was most often anything in the Java section) because it depended on something provided by a virtual package. It was Icy that made me enact the policy "if you have ever used a package manager other than Cydia on your device I really cannot support your installation anymore", which was only then reinforced by the issues Rock had with some of the same parts of APT.

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  18. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    And yet, all of his comments make no sense, from his insistence that Cydia can somehow block piracy on an open platform (with claims that Rock somehow /did/) to a belief that now that Rock and I are cooperating on the ecosystem somehow all of Rock's features, features FreeApple himself seem to believe caused more sales (which would therefore be good for me to implement, as they make me more money, right?) are now not going to be implemented (despite specific political explanations I have provided for why those very things have not changed recently, as well as information on the future roadmap), with culmination on a specific silly grievance regarding the lag time to posting a product in the Cydia Store (which is incredibly variable based on what repository you use, as each has different ways of trying to get me different information on the vendors and then provides different levels of support to those vendors; BigBoss averages at 2-3 days, for example, and MacCiti seems to have figured out a way to get nearly instantaneous approvals, which baffles even me; Rock's 7 days seems way too long, actually).

    I was done with this thread until you and Kyle came back....I know you both have been extremly busy and are sincerly sick of hearing what people like myself have to say, but I need you to know I DO appreciate your hard work unlike some and I DO just want to make things easier for all of us!

    I will now try to defend myself here becuase I know that within my post earlier I let anger get the best of me....


    Now your right when you speak of your "open platform" and Iam sorry I did not realize it was like this at all....I thought differently and should have researched before I wrote "wich I usually do" but like I said I have been in a frenzy trying to better understand the who, why, what, were, whens and hows on this whole ordeal!

    As I look furter into this it might not be as bad as I invisioned, but just know that there is alot of people counting on you now Suarik ...you just took the mother load here! We had a store us devs could fall back on when Cydia was being slow, now we have no choice but to use Cydia.....

    Please dont take any of what I mentioned personal....as you and I both know this is business and Iam just trying to seek a market that is profitable!

    Things were going GREAT at Rock you have to understand my frustration =)Why fix it if it isnt broken...is the old saying...


    I have one more concern "question" that I know just about everybody is woundering and I hope this question doesnt sound stupid or come off the wrong way....

    Suarik- Rock did not need a special repository to upload things..."For Example BigBoss...MMI" we simply went online uploaded our package and we delt with them first hand....why can we not o this with you and Cydia?

    thanks Suarik I hope I didnt rub you the wrong way man!

  19. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    I am not asking to refresh individual sources. You have a mechanism for adding and removing sources already, which means there is a master source list that gets refreshed. I am asking to be able to remove sources from that master list, but keep the entries there for addition back, later. In this way they are removed from the pool that is being refreshed, but not eliminated from Cydia, and can be 're-enabled' in the future. This is possible - I've done it myself.
    I don't understand the advantage of doing this. The only thing I can think of is "so that that repository doesn't make the refresh mechanism get all borked up", which is where any time building this workaround feature should actually be spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    This either does nothing, or clears the entire queue.. not the single item in question. Try it.

    For example, if you have 3 updates, hit update all, then Cancel > Continue Queuing. Pick one of the updates, and hit Modify, Clear. Here, it still appears in the install list. Hit Cancel > Continue Queuing. It STILL appears in the install list. I just tried this exact scenario.
    Woah. Ok... that is /freaky/... I'm sorry I failed to notice that. Regardless, I believe the Clear feature has already been reimplemented by chpwn for the next release of Cydia, but I will make certain this feature works.

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    What is Cydia, really? It's a GUI for dpkg and apt. Does that mean I should just avoid it entirely and use commandline tools? The point here is ease of use. It's not your problem if someone f's up their phone because you gave them too much control.. jailbreaking does that by definition. Don't be what Jobs is.
    This analogy does not make any sense because Steve Jobs does not let you drop down to dpkg. If there was some complex way where a user could legitimately jailbreak their device (like there is on the Nexus One) I would not in any way fault Steve Jobs for not adding features that jailbreaking required to their App Store.

    Meanwhile, this isn't even practical, because adding interfaces to Cydia to handle every single possible case that an actual expert is going to expect to have handled while doing something that APT is screaming in pain "do not do" is a lot of work that is going to be appreciated by almost no one, and frankly causes a ton of semantics and user interface design issues. If you know what you are doing, and want to do something insanely incorrect, use dpkg and APT: there are hundreds of flags and options on each of these to let you do /exactly/ what you wanted to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    One of the first things you ask when installing Cydia is 'What are you?'. Sure, you only use it to determine what packages are hidden, but it could also allow additional options like force installation and removal. This would solve a lot of the issues with Cydia, even though it goes against your 'complete correctness' values. I get that and support it, but the problem is repo's and packages are not always correct and you CANNOT expect them to be. You can't. If you do, that's poor support, allowing a single repo to make the entire Cydia experience terrible. Again, being able to temporarily 'disable' repos would also help here. Anyone saying "complaining about Cydia errors is like complaining about Safari rending bad code on a web page" is retarded. Why? Because SAFARI DOESN'T LOAD EVERY PAGE ON THE INTERNET AT ONCE AND THEN FAIL TO LET YOU VIEW ANYTHING IF ONE OF THEM IS CODED INCORRECTLY!
    I have simply never run into a situation where this has ever come up, and I /am/ a power user... even if you include my experience on Linux systems unrelated to the iPhone I don't know if I've ever had to use a --force flag on dpkg to install something. You are simply doing something wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    I know, but you run the app man. Changing how that sh!t works and notifying them on how to fix is your responsibility if you want to make your app user friendly. If their themes no longer show up, they will be forced to make the change. You could even force them to run that script if you wanted. Make change happen man.
    Actually, if their themes no longer showed up I'd get a million complaints from users and developers about why are no longer showing up, followed by a public outcry over how much Cydia sucks in comparison to Rock/Icy/Installer/whatever which actually /was/ showing all of that data, and how I needed to "fix my **** or gtfo". As far as I can tell, politically speaking, I actually have almost no control over the repository part of the ecosystem.

    Seriously: it may seem counter-intuitive to a lot of people who are expounding their simplistic views of monopolies and competitions, but there is almost no pressure on repositories to adapt (despite there being a million of them) and insane pressure on the package installer (even when there is only one of them). The issue is one of barriers to entry: the repositories have amassed years worth of content and relationships that is almost impossible to replace, but every developer in their garage can rewrite 5% of Cydia, which is enough to at least install something.

    As an example of this, one of the most critical performance issues in Cydia has actually been the time (and bandwidth) it takes to do a repository refresh. The index files for BigBoss and ModMyi (and more recently ZodTTD, which no longer has 7 packages ;P) are each over a megabyte large, and users for a long time had to redownload that entire megabyte every time they got an update. This was actually one of Rock's "features": by centrally controlling the default repositories (giving them the questionable power, which they used, to censor packages from those repositories; /only/ the default ones, mind you) they were able to send "just the differences" to the client.

    However, Cydia has supported a similar feature forever: "diff indices", which offer all of the same advantages without the centralized control that Rock claimed they needed for performance reasons. But, after two years of bringing up the subject of getting the "we push an update every day" default repositories to start using this feature, I had not totally succeeded until just last night, when ModMyi (the final holdout, AFAIK, but I need to recheck now) finally flipped the switch (which either took their repository offline or brought it back up: I'm not certain which).

    Now, could I have just delisted the repositories that didn't support diff indices? I doubt it. Initially that would have meant "ok, now there are no repositories", and even when there was still only a single one left, I can't just /delist/ ModMyi: users would not tolerate it. The key insight here (which also applies to a lot of the understanding about how Cydia was actually competing with Intelliborn, not Rock Your Phone), is that "end users do not care about how their installer works or even how their installer performs: they care about what their installer installs".

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    No, the system is not fried. An example of this scenario is a package that tries to modify a file installed in another package. It gets stuck in the installation queue somehow, and everytime I try to even remove the package it's conflicting with, that first install gets run from cache and prevents the queue from continuing. The only way to fix it is to go manually run a dpkg uninstallation. A 'normal' user would not know how to do this.
    Those packages simply fail to install and are rolled back. I tested this just last week when I had to deal with the "xz-utils" package that someone had uploaded to a default repository that had a file conflict with the essential package "lzma-utils".

    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    Yes, this is post-update. Even current version. When I say broken .list files, I'm talking about even doing something like adding just "http://" as a source. Completely buggers up Cydia and produces errors about the source not refreshing every time I perform a refresh. The entry does not appear in 'Sources' to remove, and I have to try and manually remove it from all of Cydia's .lists and other areas like cached app installations and change caches. We need a 'blow it all away and restart' button. I have fixed it myself by deleting all .lists, blowing away the changes cache, and then blowing away any cached installations or partials. Took me days to figure out how to do all that.
    I am unable to replicate this: adding "http://" is not possible as it fails to get past the "verifying repository" step. What you should be doing here is finding concrete bugs and asking them to be fixed, not insisting that Cydia should also come up with a ton of debugging tools for letting you manually fix the issue, all of which are just going to be more irritating than opening the file with a text editor and fixing it yourself. If the bug is "adding the repository hppt/::wtf" causes Cydia to get wedged, let's just fix it.

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  21. #334
    I think it's cool but isn't all the things in Rock, in cydia?

  22. #335
    I just wanted to add to this and say people stop posting dumb stuff. With that said, I used both and didn't really care. MyWi and My3g own and Cydia had all the stability. There now I too have added my own opinion that no one else really cares about LOL I feel like I'm part of something now..

  23. #336
    Wow saurik is here and active. Just got to take the chance to thank you so much for all that you did for us to make everything easier and better. Other people here already informed me of all of your plans on putting all of the Rock features in Cydia including backups and ratings (will ratings transfer over from rock?) as well as better reliablility and stability with cydia on the ipad (how about rotation and ipad HD icon?). I was at first annoyed at the immediate news but after hearing that from the other helpful people here like K. Nitsua I will be very glad to not to have to go between 2 different jailbreak app stores for certain features (ie. opening up rock just to read reviews before I buy an app or installing from rock just so it will back up my package list).

    I look forward to seeing great things from cydia and all of your mods.

    So the situation with the Rock members... how will that work? I am aware Mario will now be at the dev level at cydia but what will happen to the rest of the Rock crew? After the initial adding of rock features to cydia will they stay on your team in running and managing Cydia or will you get rid of them and continue to run your one man show?

    Edit: I would also like to see more uniformity in app descriptions with faster loading for the screenshots + more info + changelog (always annoying waiting) as well as rockapp-like previews of the themes and mods to the left of it. Also It would be nice if you could continue to browse and do stuff while cydia is "reloading data" much the way rock does. Another great feature would be a more prominent featured and top apps section that is actually UPDATED on a regular basis (instead of the once-every-other-major-firmware-updates). Also the updated news articles that rock had would be nice
    Last edited by SnowLeo; 2010-09-13 at 04:45 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  24. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    I don't understand the advantage of doing this. The only thing I can think of is "so that that repository doesn't make the refresh mechanism get all borked up", which is where any time building this workaround feature should actually be spent.
    The problem with thinking like that is that some of the repository leaders are just as hard to get ahold of as you are. If I have to wait for someone else to fix something, that means I'm pummeled by errors until they do. The purpose you're asking for is to let me get all this crap out of my face and have a working installer while the repo gets their sh!t together

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Woah. Ok... that is /freaky/... I'm sorry I failed to notice that.
    Again, thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Meanwhile, this isn't even practical, because adding interfaces to Cydia to handle every single possible case that an actual expert is going to expect to have handled while doing something that APT is screaming in pain "do not do" is a lot of work that is going to be appreciated by almost no one, and frankly causes a ton of semantics and user interface design issues. If you know what you are doing, and want to do something insanely incorrect, use dpkg and APT: there are hundreds of flags and options on each of these to let you do /exactly/ what you wanted to do.
    The problem is not me, I had to go learn about dpkg and apt to correct these problems because I knew it was possible. The problem is with helping others - assisting the typical jailbreaker. I've spent days learning how to correct issues like that with Cydia, and everyone has them at some point. If someone came to me with that problem and I had to tell them how to fix it over the phone, or IM, or forum, I couldn't - at least not easily. Normal users are between a rock and a hard place. They either can't install anything because Cydia's buggered, or have to restore their phone and reinstall everything. If there was a hidden 'Click YES 5 times to prove you aren't an idiot and really want to do this' option to add the --force tag to whatever they're trying to do, at least I could tell them to do that over the phone and we could call it a day. Most of the time whatever gets screwed up by a single force in this case will not be so catastrophic as to either break Cydia entirely, or need a restore. Without that advanced option, those are the only choices for the typical user.

    It wouldn't take long to implement.. a new user category or a flipswitch in settings that adds the --force tag to the next action would be sufficient, and would keep me out of the console when sh!t hits the fan. Please consider it, for those of us that help others and keep them out of /your/ inbox. If their phone gets borked and they have to restore, so what. They're no better or worse off than before. It improves our ability to help you support Cydia (and fix things ourselves).

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    You are simply doing something wrong.
    C'mon, do I seem like the typical user who's just got a PEBKAC problem? I google and learn till I find answers to my issues, and they've been bugs related to the fact that Cydia wants everything to happen perfectly and every repo to be coded right 24/7 and every package to never conflict with another. It's not a Cydia problem, you're right, but Cydia could be made to handle errors far better because this often isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Actually, if their themes no longer showed up I'd get a million complaints from users and developers about why are no longer showing up, followed by a public outcry over how much Cydia sucks in comparison to Rock/Icy/Installer/whatever ... "end users do not care about how their installer works or even how their installer performs: they care about what their installer installs".
    Agreed, I was making a rash example - not necessarily a literal one, but something could and should be done to help with Theme displays.. perhaps work it into Winterboard itself somehow. All I'm saying. It's your app and you can initiate change. Dev's will be on board if there is a clear path laid out for them and it improves the user experience and thus exposure.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Those packages simply fail to install and are rolled back. I tested this just last week when I had to deal with the "xz-utils" package that someone had uploaded to a default repository that had a file conflict with the essential package "lzma-utils".
    I have definitely seen cases where this is not the case and they are not rolled back, but instead get stuck in the AutoInstall queue, even though they don't appear in the user-created Queue. Follow @reanimationxp on Twitter if you like, and I'd be happy to direct message you the next time I see this occur. The problem is I have previously had no way to report it.

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    I am unable to replicate this: adding "http://" is not possible as it fails to get past the "verifying repository" step. ... If the bug is "adding the repository hppt/::wtf" causes Cydia to get wedged, let's just fix it.
    Again, previously I really had no way to report it to you. If you follow me and I see this again, I will definitely let you know. Sorry for not being able to cite specific examples at the moment. As these are usually package or repo-related, it's only possible to show you within that time constraint.


    Thank you so much for your time and responses to my questions (rants?) about Cydia. I really do love it, appreciate your work, and taking time out of your weekend to respond to the public. I've even watched your radio interviews, so don't ever mistake that I'm not a huge fan
    Last edited by reanimationxp; 2010-09-13 at 06:23 AM.
    Anybody want a 32GB Mint Condition Black JB Unlocked 3GS? PM me with offers.

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to reanimationxp For This Useful Post:

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  26. #338
    Oh and one more thing I just have to say to saurik since he's here: I LOVE YOUR BEARD!

    does anyone remember that simply aweful installer called like kracken or something with a K. I found it by mistake a long time ago and installed it and just experienced mega fail. It like didnt even start out with any sources and had the weirdest way of adding them and the ultimate ugliest interface. Im gonna try to find it again though. Anyone remember it??

    Edit: Found it!! Its called Kryptes and its only available on the sleeperz.net repo. blows nuts. Saurik you should buy them out too just for the hell of it

    An Alternative to Cydia and Installer | Sleepers.net | iPhone News and Application Reviews

    But even Kryptes has a top packages option... common saurik. lol.
    Last edited by SnowLeo; 2010-09-13 at 06:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  27. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by reanimationxp View Post
    I have definitely seen cases where this is not the case and they are not rolled back, but instead get stuck in the AutoInstall queue, even though they don't appear in the user-created Queue. Follow @reanimationxp on Twitter if you like, and I'd be happy to direct message you the next time I see this occur. The problem is I have previously had no way to report it.


    Again, previously I really had no way to report it to you. If you follow me and I see this again, I will definitely let you know. Sorry for not being able to cite specific examples at the moment. As these are usually package or repo-related, it's only possible to show you within that time constraint.


    Thank you so much for your time and responses to my questions (rants?) about Cydia. I really do love it, appreciate your work, and taking time out of your weekend to respond to the public. I've even watched your radio interviews, so don't ever mistake that I'm not a huge fan
    Actually, chpwn tweeted tonight that any Cydia crashes and any other Cydia issues should be emailed to him at their respective addresses:

    [email protected]
    [email protected]

  28. #340
    How bout a Cydia desktop app? I would pay good cash money for one of those (Icy/Installer and ROCK had one of those).

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