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Thread: Apple's refuse to sign pre 3.1 restores probably illegal

  1. #1
    Default Apple's refuse to sign pre 3.1 restores probably illegal
    I'm wandering, why everybody takes it for granted, that Apple has the right to decide, whether we are allowed to restore our iPhones to the system version we bought it or not.

    Would you accept to be forced by Apple to install Leopard, if you want to reinstall Tiger on your old trusty Mac? Or for you Windows guys, would you accept, if Microsoft would force you to install Vista, when all you want to do is reinstall XP? Surely not.

    So what is the difference? We have the 3.0 or 3.0.1 firmware backed up on our computer. I don't request any additional service from Apple like hosting old software forever, which I can't obviously. No, I just want to install the same firmware that is currently on my device, and from which I know it works perfectly, from a backup on my computer. And Apple decides, no, you may not restore from your backup, you have to upgrade instead.

    Frankly, I can't believe this is legal.

    And just because Apple is doing it currently is no argument, that it is legal. It would not be the first time, Apple had to adjust their policy because it was against the law in some countries. I just mention different pricing schema in EU iTunes stores, which was against EU law. Apple adjusted their policy after being threatened with a fine of 488 Million Euro.

    So it might simply be the question, whether some brave iPhone owner might take legal action against Apple and we might suddenly see Apple's servers start signing again older iPhone firmware. ;-)

    Just something to think about aside from SHSH caching and other solutions.
    Last edited by modornot; 2009-09-18 at 06:29 PM.

  2. #2
    iPhoneaholic sursture's Avatar
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    AGREE 100% - If I could afford it - I would push it in court.

    It is MY phone, and MINE alone (even if subsidized by e.g. AT&T) - I decide what to do and NOT with MY phone - simple as that!
    Do hope that helps



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  4. #3
    Retired Moderator StealthBravo's Avatar
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    I agree. I am not sure how they think this is legal

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sursture View Post
    AGREE 100% - If I could afford it - I would push it in court.

    It is MY phone, and MINE alone (even if subsidized by e.g. AT&T) - I decide what to do and NOT with MY phone - simple as that!
    Apple is just giving the EFF more ammo to allow jailbreaking legal. I think the trials are going to be in the next month or two that challange the DMCA to the patent office. With the whole google insident Apple is really stepping in their own crap.

  6. #5
    Usually I don't like the EU overregulation. But probably in this case they might be helpful in stopping Apples dream about Orwell's 1984 like total control of their iPhone customers.

    Well, lets see whether I can sent a member of the EU parliament on the right track. ;-)

  7. #6
    I said pretty much the same thing here http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iph...rtisement.html

    If you look at the pic I posted in the last post, I would think that restore statement in iTunes alone would be enough to give someone a valid case. iPhone OS 3.1 is NOT original settings for me, or the majority of 3G[S] owners. I couldn't find any way to email apple to raise this point with them.

  8. #7
    I would agree with you guys, but as soon as you "upgrade" the phone and use Apple to do it you are now agreeing to their rights PAST that point. I believe in being as free as you can with any hardware you buy, but if you agree to use their software then you have to abid by their agreements. It would be liek going to a stadium and when you walk in you want to bring in all the food and drink from outside. You have to abide by rules because they own the damn place. They are not doing anything illegal.

  9. #8
    My iPhone is a Part of Me Madman604x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L00i3 View Post
    I said pretty much the same thing here http://modmyi.com/forums/general-iph...rtisement.html

    If you look at the pic I posted in the last post, I would think that restore statement in iTunes alone would be enough to give someone a valid case. iPhone OS 3.1 is NOT original settings for me, or the majority of 3G[S] owners. I couldn't find any way to email apple to raise this point with them.
    exactly. they are misrepresenting that their "restore" resets your phone to the CURRENT OEM standard, and NOT the original setting you had when your phone was purchased.

    they are tricking uninformed people into upgrading to 3.1 with no hope of going back.

  10. #9
    Livin the iPhone Life mr.sparky's Avatar
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    Im pertty sure the only people that want to go back are the jailbreakers...and we all know apple does not care about what we want.....
    http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o260/cpjr1979/dc5274181cd827585d4bb6d16bedb210cop.png
    Steroids are yummy

  11. #10
    If there are any lawyers in the forum would be really great if they could look at their respective agreements and see if there is a case.

    I would make a (small) contribution towards a fighting fund for a test case .... this has annoyed me more than inconvenienced me at the moment and there are 10,000s of us out there.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.sparky View Post
    Im pertty sure the only people that want to go back are the jailbreakers...and we all know apple does not care about what we want.....
    That may be true, but not a valid argument (in my opinion). Some people may not want to update cuz of the time involved, or may like it just fine the way it is, or maybe they read somewhere that 3.1 is buggy. There are plenty of valid reasons why one would want to be able to reinstall the original OS if they were forced to restore. Besides, the meaning of restore and the meaning of upgrade are very different. Bottom line (from my point of view, not from a legal point of view I'm sure) if I don't want to install-or keep if it if I did upgrade-the latest OS, I should be the one making that choice, not Apple. I bought their phone, not any sort of babysitting/safekeeping service. Maybe if I had rented it, but definitely not on something I own.

    Kinda like Windows for example. If I bought a computer with Vista installed shortly after Vista went live (which I did), it would not have any service packs installed by default. I alone have the choice of whether or not to allow Windows Update to automatically download or download and install the service packs when they become available. No matter how much Microsoft touts all the virtues of the service packs, if I don't want to install them, I don't have to. And even if I do, if I ever need to reinstall Windows, the restore discs would put Windows back to where it was the day I took the computer out of the box and turned it on the first time. Now if I went and bought a Vista machine today, it would come preinstalled with service pack 2, and without getting ahold of old discs, I would never be able to go below SP2 on a reinstall.

    I see no difference between that scenario, and how the iphone experience should be. If I bought a phone with 3.0 or 3.0.1 stock, I should be able to reinstall the version it came with. If I bought one tomorrow, and it came stock with 3.1, then again, I should be able to reinstall 3.1 at any point in the future, regardless of the current version at that point.

    OK, I will now stop bumpin my gums on a forum, beings as I know it will do me no good.

  13. #12
    My iPhone is a Part of Me
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    Agreed.

  14. #13
    @adseguy:
    1.) You would be right, if I had rented the phone from Apple. Then they could regulate what exactly I may do with the Phone and what not. But I bought the phone, it is MY property.

    2.) Luckily at least in Europe you can't set up your own rules freely, have them signed and then say "sorry we own you, you agreed to this". If you include a rule that is against the law, it is not effective, even if signed. In the worst case the whole contract is not effective any more. This is true especially in B2C deals.

    3.) If I voluntarily decided to upgrade to a new version, then you are probably right, I can't demand from Apple, that they offer me a downgrade path, IF they make it clear at the beginning of the upgrade procedure, that there is not way to downgrade. Did you see such a warning? I can't remember.

    4.) If all I want to do is restore my device to its current state, Apple has no rights to prohibit this. Keep in mind: It is not a passive prohibition from Apple's side, like if they simply wouldn't offer to download old firmware from their servers. No, it is an active prohibition! I have the backup on my computer but Apple actively prohibits me from installing it.


    @L00i3:
    I can only agree. And I want to reiterate the point, that while jailbreaker and unlocker are probably affected most by the Apple's new firmware signing practice in the 3GS, it absolutely doesn't matter for what reason I want to keep control over the software on my device. As you said, there are other good reasons like just the old rule of "never touch a running system". I don't know of a single system upgrade that didn't break something. So if you have a well running system, there are good reasons to stick with it. Period.

    The new practice of Apple to remotely control whether you are allowed to restore your firmware or have to upgrade to a new version is a serious violation of our right of self-determination. If this approach would be used widespread in computers and all our software-driven devices, we'd totally loose control over our life. Your computer would decide what software you should run, your car would lock up, if not serviced by an authorized garage, your coffee maker would only work with a manufacturer authorized blend of coffee etc., etc., etc.

    Sauriks comparison on his blog about Apple's behavior and the George Orwell's 1984 novel is not just a giant blurb of an angry hacker. If the industry follows the Apple practice to control our devices remotely, we will be not so far from Orwell's 1984. So we should stop these desires early through our representatives, which is our government.

    That is in my opinion the keypoint, why members of Parliament might take action against Apple. Not to make the life easier for a small group of hackers, but to stop a practice that violates our right of self-determination.

    @all:
    What can you/we do. I don't expect anybody to sue Apple - well unless you have some money to spend.
    But you should try to find a representative of your local government and issue your fear about loosing your right of self-determination, if Apple's current practice becomes more widespread. Ask him to contact Apple and make them stop this practice ASAP.

    Don't say "useless", the representatives won't do anything. Yes, they probably won't because of just your single request. But if there are hundreds, thousands, ten-thousands of similar requests, they will become nervous. And if you are lucky and your representative has a jailbroken iPhone already, even your single request might trigger some action. ;-)

    Well, probably we should stop this thread now, as it is a bit OT. But feel free to bring this discussion into other iPhone related boards you are participating. It can only be helpful, if other people make up their mind and take their action to stop any desires to control our devices, being it from Apple or other companies.
    Last edited by modornot; 2009-09-19 at 12:40 PM.

  15. #14
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    And remember this VERY IMPORTANT POINT.

    Just because a company includes bull-**** rules, regulation and other nonsense does NOT MAKE IT LEGAL.

    Governments establish rules, laws and conditions -- NOT companies . And WE THE PEOPLE elect our government representatives. Don't ever forget that!!

  16. #15
    Apple is not the only one stopping people from downgrading firmwares. This is kind of industry practice to not allow people to downgrade. Many other mobile phones only allow firmware upgrade via official upgrade tools from the vendor, not downgrade. Although, most have unofficial tools to bypass the restriction. Same as firmware from many other devices, such as game consoles, routers, etc, to not allow downgrading.

    I'm sure you won't stand a chance in court for suing Apple not allowing downgrading. Remember you only bought the hardware and not the OS software inside. Apple can do whatever they want with the software. The OS is Apple's intellectual property and they only granted you the right to use it. They can upgrade the software (adding new functionalties and remove others) and remove the support/distribution on old ones. When you click the button to upgrade to OS 3.1, you right on using the old firmware is revoked.

  17. #16
    I do not agree with Phantom8. I am in the HW and SW support of major vendors for 25 years now. Mostly what computer vendors can do is to persuade their customers to upgrade saying that one can enjoy new features or they can say if you do not upgrade, they will be no longer able to support it after certain time limit caused they are given a chance to upgrade to a newer, bug free version. I never see a single case that one can force its customer to upgrade to the extent disabling one use of the product (locked). I particular sorry for those non-technical. loyal users who brought a lovely 3GS oversea when they travel, connected to iTunes, ugrade it as suggested by Apple, or even try to erase unwanted data by pressing General->reset, the iphone cannot boot up anymore, dead unless you finally update to 3.1 !! Once again, I buy my unit which become my property. The terms and conditions shown before upgrade do not excuse Apple from this basic principle and taking away ownership of the product from its customers.

    Many people already said what I said above. It is no threat to Apple, with a arrogant CEO. They know that no single customer is able to negotiate with them alone. They more treasure the Revenue (Apple Store income) than the hates from a part of its customers. So I think the only way is not take it to the Court. They know no single customer will. I think the only effective way is to use media to pressure it. Make the story visible. I think Facebook Group is a good way. I also think sending formal complaint letters to Apple, and through its website by everybody is useful. No use if just I do it alone. I think it will be useful if all people ever write in this Forum write a mail to Apple, it will draw some attention. I will not mention about JB, I just mention about respecting customer choices. If someone good in English can help to make a template of the letter, then everybody just use the template, put in one name and country, mail it to Apple. It will create some attention when Steve Jobs receive million of such letters.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by goodman1501 View Post
    I do not agree with Phantom8. I am in the HW and SW support of major vendors for 25 years now. Mostly what computer vendors can do is to persuade their customers to upgrade saying that one can enjoy new features or they can say if you do not upgrade, they will be no longer able to support it after certain time limit caused they are given a chance to upgrade to a newer, bug free version. I never see a single case that one can force its customer to upgrade to the extent disabling one use of the product (locked). I particular sorry for those non-technical. loyal users who brought a lovely 3GS oversea when they travel, connected to iTunes, ugrade it as suggested by Apple, or even try to erase unwanted data by pressing General->reset, the iphone cannot boot up anymore, dead unless you finally update to 3.1 !! Once again, I buy my unit which become my property. The terms and conditions shown before upgrade do not excuse Apple from this basic principle and taking away ownership of the product from its customers.

    Many people already said what I said above. It is no threat to Apple, with a arrogant CEO. They know that no single customer is able to negotiate with them alone. They more treasure the Revenue (Apple Store income) than the hates from a part of its customers. So I think the only way is not take it to the Court. They know no single customer will. I think the only effective way is to use media to pressure it. Make the story visible. I think Facebook Group is a good way. I also think sending formal complaint letters to Apple, and through its website by everybody is useful. No use if just I do it alone. I think it will be useful if all people ever write in this Forum write a mail to Apple, it will draw some attention. I will not mention about JB, I just mention about respecting customer choices. If someone good in English can help to make a template of the letter, then everybody just use the template, put in one name and country, mail it to Apple. It will create some attention when Steve Jobs receive million of such letters.

    Totally agree with goodman1501. There 's no better way to show our displeasure towards the fact that they decide to lock all the previous fw. The hw and sw are ours and we can do whatever we want with tnem. Ι can't be bound to whatever changes Apple wants to apply to their devices - sw.

  19. #18
    Green Apple muffpirate's Avatar
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    Some people have argued that once we click the agree button to upgrade we have lost all of our privilages.

    So, what about the people who have NO CHOICE but to upgrade because their phone locked up, coma-mode, for whatever reason? I don't see any option for these people that have NO CHOICE but to restore their phone having the option to restore to their current or favorite FW.

    NO, instead their ONLY choice in the sometimes necessary restore process is the newest FW and along with it, apple's tightening choke hold on the necks of its customers.

    I own my iphone. I paid for it in full to avoid the stupid AT&T drama. I can do whatever I want with my phone. If people were not allowed to modify, add-to, or take-away-from any operating system installed on the device they bought, then all they bought was box with wires and sh1t in it.

    And yea, how many people upgraded to Vista and said *&@# this!! I'm going back to XP!!?? How many computers were sold with Vista and had that crap downgraded to XP?? And why was this done, because the people had the choice and the ability to do so.

    Now to those of you stroking apple's epeen, do it long enough and you'll get something in the face.

  20. #19
    Livin the iPhone Life
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    You mentioned downgrading Vista to XP --- what about Snow ... to Leopard .. or Tiger for Mac users? They would outraged if Apple refused to allow them to downgrade .

  21. #20
    Green Apple muffpirate's Avatar
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    ^ yea.. you know what I mean

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