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08-04-2013, 05:29 PM #21
Well what makes me laugh is their going to fine people of don't have health insurance. If that's the case if they don't have to money for Heath insurance? What makes them think their going to have money for the fine? Lmao
How about for vets that don't have a job and go to the VA for medical help? The government going to fine us also?
08-04-2013, 06:36 PM #22
If only Mr117 gave out all the facts. It's funny that you only mention the positives in all your ranting. Apparently there aren't any negative impacts to these programs. Where is the money coming from to fund all this healthcare?
I'm definitely not a kid, and I am not getting into this discussion here, but please do some more research and find out all the "facts" as you call them. Leaving out information is no different that lying. I'm done, you can reply as you wish, but won't get more from me here.
08-04-2013, 07:30 PM #23
08-04-2013, 07:59 PM #24
Ranting? Nowhere am I ranting. This started with my stating that political opinions placed in comments about cellphones in this blog were out of place. Since certain of you wish to discuss healthcare as it will be next year (and since none of us can be sure how it will play out yet) I responded to that. I am not an apologist for anyone, nor am I willing to let someone call me a liar because I state that I don't wish to pay anyone else's healthcare costs (are you listening, Mr King O Hill?). Do you?
Here is what I said re healthcare in my previous post. Where are the lies? Where are the negatives I have left out?
"No- I don't think so. Instead of young green apples having NO health insurance (always assuming they don't need it because they are young), when they or their families DO need it they go to the emergency room and I and other taxpayers end up paying for it because, well, health care is available for the uninsured if you get it at the emergency room. Under the new plan (which, btw, has not even taken affect yet- not until 2014), everyone will need some form of health care and hopefully those of us who pay (state) taxes will have the burden lifted from us of having to pay for yours. In any event, YOU can't possibly know if it will work or not, as it, as I said, hasn't even been fully implemented yet. And if you wish to state here that I and others should pay for YOUR healthcare, then we know what that makes you, don't we?"
Now you are saying I'm lying. How and where? I and others have to pay for the healthcare of those who have no insurance. Is that a lie? The plan hasn't been implemented yet (at least that part requiring you to get insurance). Is that a lie? I hope that, when the plan is implemented I will no longer have to pay for your health costs. Is that a lie? Are there negatives I've left out? What are they?
Really, Mr. Hill, it's not for you to call someone a liar because of your beliefs based on your thoughts, not on what was said. All I said was, I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare costs, and expect (hope) that that will cease when this plan goes into effect. Anything else you are speaking of here is from your own mind, not from my statements.
As to the comment about fines, we now have a law that requires you to have health insurance, just as we have a law that requires you to have car insurance if you drive. If you expect society to pay your bills, you should be aware that there will be consequences. If you don't wish to pay for your insurance, then the government will enact consequences upon you. Though, if I understand correctly, the fines will be equal to the cost of the insurance you decline to purchase. The only negative is that you got caught not paying your bills. Because you expect someone else to pay them is of no import.
As to vets and the VA, if you have a disability based on military service, the VA will treat you for it. Maybe slowly, with a lot of paperwork, but it will. If you are inferring that the VA will treat you and your family as a general healthcare provider, I don't have any facts on that. I have friends who were in the military and are receiving treatment based on the disabilities they have claimed, but they also have health insurance for everything else.
As to where the money comes from? It comes from taxes and from, we all hope, savings from lowering the charges of health care providers. And before anyone jumps on the idea of taxes, taxes pay for services. Everyone likes services (planes not falling from the sky, traffic lights that work, hamburger that doesn't kill you, a standing army, etc.) but no one wants to pay for it. No taxes, no services. Do I like taxes? No. Do I understand the need for them? Yes.Senior
08-04-2013, 09:18 PM #25
The problem is how rooted corruption has set in to our government. Like every government. In Latin. Polio and many. And tics is blood sucking creatures. Politics. Think about it
Is our country working out its problems. Slowly. And while creating others. That's life. At least we are awaking to the greater evils behind closed curtains that pulls the strings of the daily puppets. No plan is perfect. Only the outcome can determine a plans worth
Many valid points were told. We still have a long way to go. As humans
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08-04-2013, 11:50 PM #26
I can choose to not have a car...I cannot choose not to have health care...the government does NOT know what's best for me...this government spies on its on citizens yet we are just supposed to blindly trust them. Forget political parties...what use is safety if you are not free. Men were willing to die for that freedom. To be free from England. The suppression of religious freedom and overtaxation. I am sorry but the Declaration of Independence was signed with blood. People died for the bill of rights. You just have some people in this country who don't care about that. They scream keep us safe but at what cost will it come...it is a slippery slope. If you really trust ANY politician then you are a fool. A person who is willing to sacrifice liberty for safety deserves neither liberty or safety. On another note, what this has to do with a ban on iPhones I'm not sure lol.
Last edited by Feanor64; 08-04-2013 at 11:53 PM.
08-05-2013, 12:50 AM #27
Feanor64- With a few exceptions I fully agree with you. Yes, you can not buy a car, but you must get around somehow- and how you do is paid for by taxes/fees (roads, public transport,stop lights, etc.). You don't live on a farm and never leave it. You use public areas, paid for by the government with public funds (taxes). But healthcare- well, when you get sick, in this country, you get free healthcare if you show up at a hospital. And someone has to pay for it if you do not. Hence, people should pay for it themselves. Because, at some point you ARE going to need healthcare, and with no insurance everyone else WILL have to pay for yours. As for the rest of what you say, well, my first question to my high school government class is, "how can you tell when a politician is lying?" (His lips are moving.) The worst thing to come out of 9/11 was the giving up of civil rights to "keep us safe." Yes, we did rebel against England (and in England the "freedom fighters" here are thought of as terrorists and traitors to the Crown). And the Declaration, while not signed literally in blood, pitted one group of English against another group of English in our 1st civil war. To my view, the good guys won. However, no one died for the Bill of Rights, that was an argument between Federalists and Anti-Federalists about the power or lack thereof of a centralized federal government many years after the War of Independence was won. The original Constitution merely listed the ways government would run. People's rights were not included in it (read it if you don't believe me). The Bill of Rights came later (but thankfully it was enacted). And slippery slope is the most important part of what I teach in that class. It starts small, but by the time you reach the end it's all over. As the saying goes, "first they came for the ( ) and I did nothing...." and at the end... "and then they came for me and there was no one to stop them."Senior
08-05-2013, 08:38 AM #28
Last edited by tridley68; 08-05-2013 at 08:41 AM.
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08-05-2013, 08:50 AM #29
So we went from Apple v Samsung partisanship to Dem v GOP partisanship. Wonderful demonstrations of groupthink all around. No wonder we're so easy for the plutocrats to control.
08-05-2013, 09:27 AM #30
A rather "interesting" historian postulates that the two-party system was put in place originally to keep the hoi polloi (that's us) occupied while the real power brokers did their thing behind the scenes.Senior
08-05-2013, 11:12 AM #31
And the next time someone says Obama is saving our economy I'm going to puke. All this administration has done is super inflate Wall St. by printing money and pumping millions of dollars into the market. That's it. What happens when this money stops? That remains to be seen, and 80% of the investment world believe Wall St. is still not ready to support itself. The more money they print, the cheaper our dollar gets - crippling us even further.
As for the Apple thing, once again Obama enacts his power to push for another American company. Just like the abuse of the patent office in regards to Samsung. Protecting an American company that send billions overseas to Pegatron and Foxcon that do not pay taxes on the American dollar, just to produce Apple products. Good plan.
Well played Mr. President, well played. Lol.
08-05-2013, 11:43 AM #32
08-05-2013, 12:45 PM #33
Mr117 I did not mean literally in blood of course but in order for it to be argued, wrote and signed there had to be a war where soldiers died fighting for that right to be able to have that conversation. Things leading up until the American revolution. People died. It was literally bought with blood. The simple reason that I am against government mandated health care is this. The government will not stop there. They have proven themselves to be irresponsible with their duties to the american people. We are much to blame because we care more about the kardashians. Also like you I agree with the need for taxes. Of course we need roads and schools. But do we really need to send billions of dollars to Egypt and other countries. Why? We cannot spend our way to a better world. Why should people halfway across the world get my hard earned money when they will not stand up and change their country themselves. Something given has no value. The only thing it does is bestow upon people a sense of entitlement. Taxes are a good thing but like any good thing it can be turned into a bad thing. Unless things change, one day when we wake up and realize what we have become, we need only to look in the mirror to find the one to blame.
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08-05-2013, 01:00 PM #34
After paying $17,000 a year for insurance for both my wife and I (because she is uninsurable), Obamacare will be welcomed in my household.
08-05-2013, 02:46 PM #35
Feanor- I have no objections to your last post at all. Yes, as I stated, the American Revolution cost the blood of the English people who fought it on both sides. My only point was that the Bill of Rights came later, and was not fought over on a battlefield.
As to how taxes are allocated, I couldn't agree more. Keep the money in the US, stop supporting other (despotic) governments, stop fighting wars on other people's land, and we wouldn't need to borrow from the Chinese so we can buy Korean TVs and keep WalMart afloat. From what I can see, the healthcare plan will still keep the money in the provider's pockets and will actually give them more people to insure. And take the pressure off of the taxpayers who are being forced to subsidize the non-insured. Yes, the poorest will get freebees. But the rest, those who choose not to buy insurance in the hope that they won't need it, and those that need help paying for it (but not all of it), as well as those that can't get it because of pre-existing conditions, they will now be having insurance and the rest of us will hopefully get a bit of a break. My only hope is some governmental oversight (I know, a faint hope) to cut costs. The current system is obviously broken, does not work, and is driving up the deficit every year, and will eventually break us. At least there is the possibility that the new plan may help. Some change is better than none. And to all the doomsday sayers out there, the plan hasn't even taken effect yet. At least wait until there is a reason to complain before bleating about it.
Carvenso- '66 Bug? Last good year they made 'em. Congrats!!Senior
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08-05-2013, 02:59 PM #36
08-05-2013, 03:47 PM #37
It'll go forever.Senior
08-05-2013, 05:00 PM #38
08-05-2013, 05:07 PM #39
Doesn't this site have moderators?
08-05-2013, 05:32 PM #40
Sure do, but so far it's hands off.
There is no left-wing equivalent of Fox "News," which is an arm of the Republican Party. MSNBC isn't even in the ballpark.Senior