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  1. #61
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    ...Thank goodness! I killed this thread! LOL!!!

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  3. #62
    My iPhone is a Part of Me JazJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    ...Thank goodness! I killed this thread! LOL!!!
    There is just as much of a chance that God is real as Santa Clause is real.

  4. #63
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JazJon View Post
    There is just as much of a chance that God is real as Santa Clause is real.
    Santa Claus' existence would certainly be easier to prove, considering he's not invisible and his place of residence is generally known

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    Go Wings Zokunei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JazJon View Post
    There is just as much of a chance that God is real as Santa Clause is real.
    That's a pretty absurd statement to make considering all the scholarly Christian apologetics literature out there. Not all Christians are fundamentalists. Santa is not subject to the same logical proofs that an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would be. Plus there are separate ones for the divinity of Jesus.

    I will not argue these on here, but the claim that there are no substantial arguments even in any books is not true.
    Last edited by Zokunei; 03-04-2013 at 07:26 AM.

  6. #65
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JazJon View Post
    There is just as much of a chance that God is real as Santa Clause is real.
    Oh really?!?!

    The difference between other religions and Christianity/Judaism is that Christianity/Judaism took place in-time, in-reality alongside history. It's not set in some mystical realm outside our world. Historical and proven events occurred because of God and His promises. For example:

    How about Sodom and Gomorrah? There's actual proof of its destruction plus 'that' destruction AND the reason for it happening was foretold in the Bible prior to it happening!

    Also, how about the entire Jewish race??? Several countries, over thousands of years, have attempted to annihilate this specific,small group of people but they are God's Chosen People and, therefore, He will not let that happen. How do you explain that?

    So, go on...tell us again how God doesn't exist!

  7. #66
    What's Jailbreak? JustBrenden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    Oh really?!?!
    So, go on...tell us again how God doesn't exist!
    Can you prove it? No. So don't even try. All religions are equally valid. The reason you don't believe in Islam is the same reason atheists don't believe anything. It's all horseshit.

  8. #67
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustBrenden View Post
    Can you prove it? No. So don't even try. All religions are equally valid. The reason you don't believe in Islam is the same reason atheists don't believe anything. It's all horseshit.
    I just gave two examples PROVING IT! I wouldn't have written anything if it wasn't valid evidence!

  9. #68
    What's Jailbreak? JustBrenden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    I just gave two examples PROVING IT! I wouldn't have written anything if it wasn't valid evidence!
    Wow really? You cannot use the bible as evidence because you cannot prove the bible was divinely inspired. Humans wrote it. Also, you still haven't proven that Jesus had magic powers.

    That's like saying I wrote "this is the one truth" on a napkin, then claiming its real! That's ludicrous!

  10. #69
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    LOL, guys, neither of you are going to convince the other. Let us just all be content with our own life philosophies and not wave them in each others' faces

  11. #70
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustBrenden View Post
    Wow really? You cannot use the bible as evidence because you cannot prove the bible was divinely inspired. Humans wrote it. Also, you still haven't proven that Jesus had magic powers.

    That's like saying I wrote "this is the one truth" on a napkin, then claiming its real! That's ludicrous!
    Okay... Lets not use the Bible as evidence. All I need to use is one example that you won't be able to explain...

    Why Jews are not extinct?

  12. #71
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    Okay... Lets not use the Bible as evidence. All I need to use is one example that you won't be able to explain...

    Why Jews are not extinct?
    ... for the same reason the rest of humanity is not extinct either?

  13. #72
    Go Wings Zokunei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nienque View Post
    LOL, guys, neither of you are going to convince the other. Let us just all be content with our own life philosophies and not wave them in each others' faces
    Debating life philosophies is something that has gone on as long as they have existed. It's fun, and even if you aren't convinced by someone you can still learn something.

  14. #73
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zokunei View Post
    Debating life philosophies is something that has gone on as long as they have existed. It's fun, and even if you aren't convinced by someone you can still learn something.
    Oh I agree there It's just that when it happens on the internet it usually descends into flaming and trolling

  15. #74
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nienque View Post
    ... for the same reason the rest of humanity is not extinct either?
    You clearly do not know history...LOL!

  16. #75
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    You clearly do not know history...LOL!
    I know enough history to know that every people has suffered persecution of some kind at some point, and we're still all here. For example, African-Americans in the Old South, Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, muslims in Srebrenica, Hutus and Tutsis, native Americans, aboriginals in Australia, and the list goes on and on.

    The Jewish people do not have a monopoly on persecution. Or is that not what you were trying to say?

    Also, in order to truly cause the Jewish people to cease to exist, one would have to kill every individual Jewish person. The sheer number of Jewish people and their geographical spread through countless diasporas makes that nigh on impossible, even if they did not have divine help.
    Last edited by nienque; 03-04-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  17. #76
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nienque View Post
    I know enough history to know that every people has suffered persecution of some kind at some point, and we're still all here. For example, African-Americans in the Old South, Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, muslims in Srebrenica, Hutus and Tutsis, native Americans, aboriginals in Australia, and the list goes on and on.

    The Jewish people do not have a monopoly on persecution. Or is that not what you were trying to say?

    Also, in order to truly cause the Jewish people to cease to exist, one would have to kill every individual Jewish person. The sheer number of Jewish people and their geographical spread through countless diasporas makes that nigh on impossible, even if they did not have divine help.
    Ahhh, very good! I retract my comment to you!

    So, now we have to determine what each other is referring to. Yes, many cultures have been persecuted and some have been completely annihilated. But the Jewish people have been persecuted AND, on several occasions, annihilation was the goal. Jerusalem alone has been destroyed 17 times and rebuilt everytime!!!

    I'd say they do have a 'monopoly' on persecution since they have encountered opposition longer than any of the examples you cited.

    You are correct in 'what would be required' for the total extinction of the Jewish people to occur...and that is my point! This was a small group of people that somehow survived. They weren't warriors by any means, yet they faced and defeated massive armies. Other small groups/races and even large groups/races are now extinct but not the Jews.

    So, how can this be explained w/out 'Divine' intervention?

    --------------------
    And to the other guy asking about Jesus' 'magic' powers; think about this:

    •300 Prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament

    •300 Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus

    •Scientific probability of Jesus fulfilling ONE prophecy:
    1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000

    •Scientific probability of Jesus fulfilling 48 prophecies:
    1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000

    Now, just multiply that above number by 6.25...that's all!

    Another analogy:
    Imagine the state of Texas (270,000 square miles) covered entirely with silver dollars, two feet thick.

    One of the coins is marked and hidden somewhere among the other coins. Now imagine sending a blindfolded man to search throughout the coins until he thinks he's found the coin that is marked. What are the odds that he will find the correct one the first time?

    The odds are the same number as if Jesus fulfilled only ONE prophecy from the Old Testament - 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000
    Last edited by thazsar; 03-04-2013 at 09:56 PM.

  18. #77
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    *snip*
    I have to say I hadn't yet come across your arguments yet, haha, most people that have tried to convince me have either told me I am going to Hell or have said something along the lines of 'this world is such a beautiful place, that can't be a coincidence'

    My main problem with the things that you state, however, is that the source for most of these things seems to be the Bible, am I correct? Now I am an ancient historian and so I am quite picky about what I will accept as a historical source. I am afraid the Bible doesn't cut it for me, because: (1) it is just one work, the events in which are not backed up by other contemporary sources; (2) it has an agenda; (3) the dating of different passages is difficult (so how are we to know if events were 'prophesied' by the Bible, or simply written down after the fact?). Incidentally, I think there is also an issue of definition when we talk about the Bible, because there is no one version of the Bible, as different Christian denominations have included/excluded different passages over time.

    So any instances of 'persecution' of the Jewish people before Vespasian's Jewish War (which is attested to by various people of different backgrounds (both Romans and Jews), whose accounts can be dated) I simply can't assume to have happened without having more historical evidence to back it up.

    I will not deny that some people have explicitly sought to completely eradicate the Jewish people as a whole. However, the fact that they failed, to me, is not very surprising for the reason I mentioned earlier. Sheer numbers. There was already a Jewish diaspora by the time of Josephus (who wrote about the aforementioned Jewish War), so even the earliest attested 'persecution' (though Vespasian didn't have the aim to eradicate the Jewish people, merely to subject them like the Romans had subjected many other peoples) I can think of would never have reached all Jewish people, as they were no longer all in one place anymore.

    Feel free to correct me if you can think of an earlier instance of Jewish persecution, which is well documented by non-religious sources.

  19. #78
    Super Penguin Mod i.Annie's Avatar
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    If only people would apply their time and efforts in arguing this never-ending controversial issue to issues that truly need attending to in our nation.

    On topic, Apple's decision to support same-sex marriage shouldn't affect you in any way. Those of you saying you will no longer buy Apple products, that's doubtful. Maybe some extremist who has way too much opinion for his own good will actually follow through, but most don't. You say you won't buy anymore just to make a point...but your point is invalid if you're not going to follow through. The whole Chik-fil-a thing...yeah so what if the CEO doesn't like gay marriage. I know gay people who still go eat there anyway. So I don't doubt there will be people loud-mouthing about how they'll boycott Apple then go buy the next new iPad/iPod/iPhone. The difference between decent people and bigots is that decent people are open-minded and still live their lives without minding the opinions of others (so long as it does not harm upon them). Bigots just go about being loud and obnoxious with no other purpose than to make other people miserable.

  20. #79
    What's Jailbreak? thazsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nienque View Post
    I have to say I hadn't yet come across your arguments....
    Since I'm 'not' a historian, I cannot give you written documentation aside from the Bible! LOL! But, that's also where our Faith takes over.

    The Bible, when the Old Testament was first written, wasn't written w/ the intent of becoming a book. It was simply an autobiography of each author. He/she wouldn't have known their writings were going to be lumped together w/ other authors - centuries apart from each other. The fascinating thing, though, is that each book/writing shared a common theme, God!

    But again, if one doesn't see the Bible as a reputable source, then there's no point in forcing it upon them.

    I was not always a Christian and have committed almost every sin except for murder! So, I will NEVER tell someone that they are going to hell. It is not my place to judge and convict; that is God's choice! Any "Christian" that does say that will be judged accordingly by Our Lord.

    Secondly, I prolly won't ever say this is such a beautiful place cuz this world sux! Hahahaha! It has already been written what is to come of this world and there's evidence of that all around. My job here is to honor God, be a light for others and love fellow man (and woman!); That's it!

    ...and maybe, just maybe, some of my words have sunken in to some of these readers. Probably not, but at least I've honored The Lord in stating facts, without hate, so that you all know what a Christian should look like...even though I sin constantly, all day-everyday!

    Quote Originally Posted by i.Annie View Post
    If only people would apply their time and efforts in arguing this never-ending controversial issue to issues that truly need attending to in our nation.

    On topic, Apple's decision to support same-sex marriage shouldn't affect you in any way. Those of you saying you will no longer buy Apple products, that's doubtful. Maybe some extremist who has way too much opinion for his own good will actually follow through, but most don't. You say you won't buy anymore just to make a point...but your point is invalid if you're not going to follow through. The whole Chik-fil-a thing...yeah so what if the CEO doesn't like gay marriage. I know gay people who still go eat there anyway. So I don't doubt there will be people loud-mouthing about how they'll boycott Apple then go buy the next new iPad/iPod/iPhone. The difference between decent people and bigots is that decent people are open-minded and still live their lives without minding the opinions of others (so long as it does not harm upon them). Bigots just go about being loud and obnoxious with no other purpose than to make other people miserable.
    ...and, Annie - +1
    Last edited by thazsar; 03-05-2013 at 07:12 AM.

  21. #80
    iPhoneaholic nienque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    *snip*
    Well, thank you for showing me your point of view, anyway! And I applaud your non-judgmental attitude

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