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Originally Posted by vbx People who are good at what they do don't need the "protection" from unions. The people who benefit most from unions are the lazy or underperforming
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by vbx View Post
    People who are good at what they do don't need the "protection" from unions. The people who benefit most from unions are the lazy or underperforming ones who otherwise would have been laid off or fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by unison999 View Post
    Union killed the automotive industry, can't wait for union to kill Apple.
    Ah... spoken by people who truly have no idea what they are talking about.

    The purpose of the union is to provide Labor with the ability to have equal leverage with Capital. Capital needs Labor to produce goods and services. Labor needs Capital to provide the environment to produce said goods and services. It's a symbiotic relationship that requires balance. But you can't have balance without effectively organizing both sides.

    Capital is always looking to reduce costs, so, yes, they will try to hold down wages as much as they can (google 'stagnant median income'). Labor is always trying to get as much as they can. In a perfect world, there would be no need for unions. Or police, or the SEC or the judicial system. But, as seen by the bursting of several 'bubbles' (or ponzi schemes encouraged by Capital/Wall Street/financial institutions) Capital can't run a system by itself that won't implode any more than Labor can organize themselves without corruption.

    So, if you really want to see what it looks like without Unions, go back to the robber barons, go back to slave wages, 'company stores', no safety, no restrictions on working hours or days, no holidays, no weekends, child labor, etc., etc., etc.

    One time, I was in a motorcycle accident. I wore a helmet. It did it's job then, so I guess I don't need to wear one anymore? Or my seatbelt? The point being that you don't eliminate a balancing part of the equation because you think it's served its purpose. If you remove it, you'll end up back where you started.

    That's not to say that I think Unions shouldn't be regulated any more or less than Capital. Again: balance.

    And to those saying that Unions killed the <insert name of industry here>, actually, you're wrong. Most of the financial problem suffered by those industries were playing games with how they did (or did not) invest the DEFERRED WAGES known as 'pensions.' (google that as well).
    Same kind of crap that the Greenspan 'commission' did by increasing payroll taxes and putting that money in the general fund and putting US Treasury Bonds in the SS trust fund instead. GM and others knew how much they needed to save but didn't care and short-changed the pensions. So, the workers worked, producing really crappy cars that couldn't effectively compete with Japanese models, thinking they had a deal with GM (and others) which would get reneged years later.
    If it was a bad deal for GM, they should not have agreed to it. But the biggest problem was crappy cars and their twisting Congress for sweet deals on trade and taxes to help them keep going along.

    So, yeah, Labor isn't bad, Capital isn't bad, but, corruption is and that's where most of your problems lie: greedy fr@cs that want to suck as much as they can out of any system. Mostly different mentality in other parts of the world which is why it's much worse here than elsewhere. Too bad we ('America, Inc.') are doing such a good job at selling our 'principles' to everyone around the planet. I love mom, apple pie and Coca Cola (TM), but I really don't like some of our business practices.

    Of course, that's just my opinion: I could be wrong.

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    About time someone rebelled at Apple :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by trixster View Post
    There's always another high school / college kid ready to take your job without a union contract needed.
    Doesn't matter if the employee can be replaced. They have the right to vote for a union. And legally they can't be fired just because they are voting for one.

    Also, Jobs has very little say if the union happens or not. He can try to persuade them not to vote.. that's about it

    Unions do tend to protect the lazy and stupid. That's my only beef with unions. I was with Teamsters for almost 10 years and all they did was protect lazy, stupid people. People who could not cut it without a union.
    Last edited by iRepairIndy; 05-20-2011 at 09:56 AM.
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    There are laws in place to protect workers rights, don't give me that unions protects workers. In order for unions to "protect" workers they have to use the same exact laws, so what is really protect the workers? Frankly I have no love for Apple, but I don't wish unions on my worse enemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unison999 View Post
    There are laws in place to protect workers rights, don't give me that unions protects workers. In order for unions to "protect" workers they have to use the same exact laws, so what is really protect the workers? Frankly I have no love for Apple, but I don't wish unions on my worse enemy.
    Unions are there to represent the workers. Union negotiate and know the laws.. unlike most people. The people who don't know the laws can easily be taken advantage of
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    Are unions the same in the USA as they are in Europe and the UK, because if they are the all you people are crazy.

    In Europe unions do this:

    1) If for example an employee is sexual harassed the union will pay for lawyers and help provide support for the employee.

    2) If an employee is unfairly dismissed, for example if they are fired simply because there boss doesn't like them then the union pay for lawyers and try to get them compensation.

    3) Unions provide a support group for employees.

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    The people who don't know the laws can easily be taken advantage of
    People who choose not to educate themselves about their own rights. So your saying they protect the lazy and stupid.

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    I work for the railroad and I thank god that we are union. It gives management less power they can't just wake up pissed off one morning and decide to fire you for the hell of it. And trust me most management fir the railroads are azzholez

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    If they Unionize, They will have at least 1 less customer. Some of you might wanna open your eyes and look around at what the Unions are doing these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iRepairIndy View Post
    Unions are there to represent the workers. Union negotiate and know the laws.. unlike most people. The people who don't know the laws can easily be taken advantage of
    Unions uses lawyers to represent workers, workers can find a lawyer all by themselves. Union workers are just go between, yet they take a percentage of your pay often before you even see your own checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pizentu View Post
    If they Unionize, They will have at least 1 less customer. Some of you might wanna open your eyes and look around at what the Unions are doing these days.
    Believe me there will be a lot more loss than just one. Crapple Don'tCare customer service will be widely accepted across the country.
    Last edited by unison999; 05-20-2011 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by Razz View Post
    I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with Unions. As far as I know it is a felony to assault anyone.
    It had everything to do with the unions, and NO it is not a felony to assault someone. assaulting these people was a misdemeanor like any other assault on a regular Joe. Unions got them the protection they needed. So that pregnant TEA who got a broken jaw for doing her job will not only get justice through the legal system, but her job will still be waiting for her while she takes time off to recover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizentu View Post
    If they Unionize, They will have at least 1 less customer. Some of you might wanna open your eyes and look around at what the Unions are doing these days.
    yeah lets look around and see what unions are doing these days...

    If customer service reps had unions, they'd still have their jobs. now when you call customer service of any major corporation, you're speaking to some guy in India or the Philippines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razz View Post
    People who choose not to educate themselves about their own rights. So your saying they protect the lazy and stupid.
    Stupid and lazy union employees..

    - police officers
    - firemen
    - construction workers
    - teachers
    - coal miners
    - university professors
    - doctors and nurses.

    you have got to be the most ignorant person posting on the web this month.

    or maybe you're just unemployed because you got fired from your job and replaced by an "undocumented" worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazturtle View Post
    Are unions the same in the USA as they are in Europe and the UK, because if they are the all you people are crazy.

    In Europe unions do this:

    1) If for example an employee is sexual harassed the union will pay for lawyers and help provide support for the employee.

    2) If an employee is unfairly dismissed, for example if they are fired simply because there boss doesn't like them then the union pay for lawyers and try to get them compensation.

    3) Unions provide a support group for employees.

    1. why shouldn't an accused person be entitled to a lawyer? and if that person pays his/her union dues, why shouldn't the union hire a lawyer for him/her?

    2. key word "unfairly" union or not, all employees are entitled to fair treatment.

    where in Europe are you from? sounds more like you're from some 3rd world country where workers rights are frowned upon and the accused have no rights.
    Last edited by jOnGarrett; 05-20-2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by jOnGarrett View Post
    yeah lets look around and see what unions are doing these days...

    If customer service reps had unions, they'd still have their jobs. now when you call customer service of any major corporation, you're speaking to some guy in India or the Philippines.



    Stupid and lazy union employees..

    - police officers
    - firemen
    - construction workers
    - teachers
    - coal miners
    - university professors
    - doctors and nurses.

    you have got to be the most ignorant person posting on the web this month.
    - police officers

    He was a unionized police officer
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q7iGA_sCoI]YouTube - &#x202a;72 Year Old Woman Gets Tazed By Police Man&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]

    - teachers

    Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    >US no. 11

    - coal miners

    they dig holes, destroy nature, and cause global warming and possible will be responsible for the death of every human being

    - firemen

    They were a unionized fire department
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFtpff_SAog]YouTube - &#x202a;House Burns Down Next To Fire Dept in Alabama (March 31, 2011)&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]

    - university professors

    lol, do I need to say more?
    >Work only a few days a week for only a few months a year
    >Get paid 6 figures
    >Tuition rates so high and expensive it's creating a permanent underclass of Americans who can't get an education

    - doctors and nurses

    >Doctors
    >6 figure salaries

    >Nuses
    >Let old and sick people die because they are unionized and can't get fired

    - construction workers

    Video of Queens construction worker abducting and raping Manhattan club patron to be on Inside Edition - NYPOST.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by unison999 View Post
    Unions uses lawyers to represent workers, workers can find a lawyer all by themselves. Union workers are just go between, yet they take a percentage of your pay often before you even see your own checks.



    Believe me there will be a lot more loss than just one. Crapple Don'tCare customer service will be widely accepted across the country.
    Yes, and thats the good things they do.

    They also represent lazy, worthless people. People who would normally be fired for good reason any other time.
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    I might be late to the party, but I'm glad I didn't participate in this discussion. You scumbags suck. All ya care about is on your investment with apple. My dream was to work with apple products and helping people too, but I hated the apple store with a passion. At my interview I was told that I was the best out of the best! I specialized myself in final cut and I got paid $8 an hour. I was a part time employee working about 35-39 hours a week with no benefits. I had to deal with crap from people, managers, and at&t. My only "thank you" was a f-you. I remember staying after hours to close a sale on 25 iMacs. I got nothing from that sale, I never got nothing for convincing you why mobileme was NOT trash. The store manager collected our bonuses and laid off about 50 workers. On our way out, we were advised to "just quit" to remain in good standing with apple.... If I had a chance to do it all over again, I would unionize.
    Last edited by Bluprint; 05-20-2011 at 01:00 PM.

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    You pro-union "rights" people are distorting rights so badly.

    A right - a real, natural, god given, inalienable right, is something that cannot be granted to you by law - which is why it's called a "god given" right. A natural right does not and cannot require someone else to give you that right. People can take away your rights, but they cannot give you your rights. A government's job is to protect your inalienable rights, not to grant them.

    Consider this scenario in the context of the above - remember, a right is something you have without needing anyone to give it to you:

    You are all alone on a desert island with no one and nothing else around.

    Do you have a right to your life? Sure, you have your life, you own it, and no one else is required to grant this right to you.

    Do you have a right to liberty and freedom? Sure, you are completely and utterly free on this desert island. No one else is required to grant you freedom.

    Do you have a right to the pursuit of happiness? Sure, you can do anything you want to pursue happiness. You don't have a right to happiness, but you have a right to pursue it, and no one else is required for you to have this god given right.

    Do you have a right to food? Well it's a desert island with no food - so how can that be a god given right? It's not - it's your right to pursue food and food production, but not to have food.

    Do you have a right to healthcare on this desert island? Of course not, that's absurd. That would require someone else on this desert island, and it would require that they are forced to care for you.

    DO YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO UNIONIZE? Obviously not - that would require many other people for you to have that "right" - an employer, workers, a government. If you had all these people, you would have a right to create any groups you wanted with any worker that wanted to voluntarily join - but that's NOT what a union is now, is it? A real union on this desert island would require by law that every worker MUST join your "group." It would require by law that no worker has a right to independently negotiate working conditions with their employer anymore.

    A union is nothing but the institution of force to reduce competition among workers, and demand conditions and salaries of your employer at the point of a gun, all with the protection of the government to allow your bullying.

    You don't own your job. The employer created your job, and owns your job, and has graciously lent it to you. Your job is the property of the employer, and the employer has set the terms and conditions of this job offer. He has not forced you to accept the conditions - it was an offer - and you can voluntarily accept the job or turn it down. That is it. You can negotiate with the employer, and he has the right to accept or decline your negotiations. You have no right to demand he accept your terms by law.

    So what have we discovered? We have discovered that you have a right to your life, your liberty, and your pursuit of happiness - THAT IS IT. An employer can not take your life away against your will, and he can not enslave you and take away your freedom against your will. THAT IS IT. He can tell you to work weekends, he can tell you to accept no pay, he can tell you to work 10 different positions, and if you don't like it, you can quit - but you cannot create laws that let you keep your job on your own terms against the will of the employer, the rightful owner of your job.

    Unions are completely against natural rights, no matter what laws a government creates.
    Last edited by lothariorowe; 05-20-2011 at 02:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluprint View Post
    I might be late to the party, but I'm glad I didn't participate in this discussion. You scumbags suck. All ya care about is on your investment with apple. My dream was to work with apple products and helping people too, but I hated the apple store with a passion. At my interview I was told that I was the best out of the best! I specialized myself in final cut and I got paid $8 an hour. I was a part time employee working about 35-39 hours a week with no benefits. I had to deal with crap from people, managers, and at&t. My only "thank you" was a f-you. I remember staying after hours to close a sale on 25 iMacs. I got nothing from that sale, I never got nothing for convincing you why mobileme was NOT trash. The store manager collected our bonuses and laid off about 50 workers. On our way out, we were advised to "just quit" to remain in good standing with apple.... If I had a chance to do it all over again, I would unionize.

    uhh if this truely happen and not some pro-union people making up stories to scare people into unions like they always do. You need to find a couple of your co-workers that got laid off and find a lawyer to represent you, get the manager fired AND get money from Apple. By not doing so you are too lazy to fight for yourself, basically you made what they said union protects the lazy true...

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    I stand by what I said earlier. Google "the rubber room new york."

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    Quote Originally Posted by unison999 View Post
    uhh if this truely happen and not some pro-union people making up stories to scare people into unions like they always do. You need to find a couple of your co-workers that got laid off and find a lawyer to represent you, get the manager fired AND get money from Apple. By not doing so you are too lazy to fight for yourself, basically you made what they said union protects the lazy true...
    Ok just where do you expect an average employee to find, say $100000 for a layer so that they can sue Apple, because remember they can't sue the manager he is protected by the law.

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    This is just retarded. While I agree that apple may treat their employees like ****, so does the rest of corporate America. Welcome to the job force.

    Retail jobs are made for 3 reasons. Seasonal part time work, college kids that need extra money, and teenagers. If you do not fall into this category you have failed at life. If you do fall into this category, ask your parents or a stranger for all I give a **** if he's ever worked a crappy job when he was younger and 9 times out of 10 you'll get a yes and I bet you it was ******** than your little apple retail job.

    The only thing unionizing apple will do is pass the extra cost of benefits, higher wages, and whatever else they want onto the consumer. So while you can be content to work at your **** *** retail job your whole life Ill have to pay an extra $100 every year for an iPhone. Thanks.

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