Jobs Still Talking Smack About Flash: Report

[dsg]

I agree with Saurik from the the point he makes starting from 'The Next Hope' in the link

the fact that Apple wants every body to conform to what they want, like locking down the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad and and telling us we don't need flash when some of us actually want it.

why should I be told what I can and can't have, especialy when it's a device I've spent good money on, Apple should give people a choice, thats why we jailbreak and that is why flash should be an option. not because flash is ****, but that we can chose to have what we want on our devices

do you buy a car then have to ask the maker where, when and how you can drive it,

NO!

so why should Apple or any other software/hardware company tell you what you can and can't do with the product you've bought

[n00neimp0rtant]

I do agree Flash does take more CPU cycles to run on a mac..

That's more of a fact than an opinion, lol

[Condor.312]

@lolcats 1

yourself look not only incredibly stereotypical

Because the whole "I am a PC User and i think macs suck: Flame Flame Flame" and "I am a mac fanboy, Mac is best for life: Flame Flame Flame" Isn't already a stereotypical argument that everyone on this forum has heard about 20,000 times...

As for speaking your mind, I'm all for that, I think it's great. I just wish people would just say something that hasn't been said over and over again for about five pages of posts, and maybe have a little respect for one-another.

[Kroo]

Your theory is flawed. We know that HTML5 will be coming out. We also know that it won't take off for a few years. Flash is what is used right now and is extremely popular and widespread throughout the internet. Steve is just mad because Flash doesn't work well on his computers. Since it works on every other computer and soon even mobile phones, the ball is in his court to figure out what's wrong. Instead he's just pointing fingers and acting like a baby. The rest of the world will continue to progress around him while he waits out HTML5 all alone.

TROLL!! What the hell would you know about flash plugin written for OSX? It would fit on your pin head. This is an article about flash running on OSX and iPad. Your garbage, is FLAWED, because you know F.UcK all about anything., so pi$$off troll!!

ABOBE FLASH IS CRRRRRRAAPP and HTML5 will replace flash, why don't you get your hand off it. Knowledge on OSX, ZERO. Your knowledge on Flash for OSX, DOUBLE ZERO. LOSER!!

[prophets]

I totally agree that flash should be banned from apple. Yeah it sucks not to see it on the website your on but seriously, apple knows what they are doing, thats why you don't see Macs getting viruses or anything like that bc they avoid stupid programs like flash. Technology changes everyday, theres gotta be something out there more safe that will come along.

That's idiotic thinking. Its on the same levels of telling a girl you don't need to use a condom because you can use the pull out method.

[Kroo]

Considering applications like MS Office run quite well on macs... I think your logic is bit flawed here.

If Flash content runs well on the varying hardware and OS combinations for a PC, why hasn't Apple managed to optimize OSX to do the same?

Flash for Linux is just as bad, so YOUR argument is a bit flawed. Adobe either don't care, don't have the code writing skills to provide for UNIX or they're just lazy.

Have a read:
Adobe Flash patch out of band - Patch Thursday? | Chester Wisniewski's Blog

On the topic of flash for Apple product, here is a quote from the Adobe website.

"A critical vulnerability exists in the current versions of Flash Player (v9.0.159.0 and v10.0.22.87) for Windows, Macintosh, Linux and Solaris operating systems, and the authplay.dll component that ships with Adobe Reader and Acrobat v9.x for Windows, Macintosh and UNIX operating systems. This vulnerability (CVE-2009-1862) could cause a crash and potentially allow an attacker to take control of the affected system. There are reports that this vulnerability is being actively exploited in the wild via limited, targeted attacks against Adobe Reader v9 on Windows.
"
Link: Adobe - Security Advisories: APSA09-03 - Security Advisory for Adobe Reader, Acrobat and Flash Player

Adobe admits their product is not up to scratch. The ball is in their court. Like I want an attacker to take control of my system. F.UCK NO!!

Lets look at some basic facts about flash on mobile devices and forget the hate/flame session:

1) Technically being able to use Flash isn't/doesn't make it feasible. So I can no get Flash ads in Safari but I am maxing out my processor so everything else on my iDevice runs slower as a result. Note that AnandTech has reported 100% utilization for significant amounts of time on Flash-heavy sites for Safari on netbooks.

2) The iPad is a handheld device, not one constantly plugged in or with a huge battery. A notebook has a huge battery compared to any iDevice yet testing shows that you get 50% more usage without Flash running. This gets worse with slower machines with smaller batteries.

3) Let's examine what people want Flash for. Games and apps? Nearly all of them won't work because they were designed for a mouse and keyboard, not a touchscreen. Flash ads? Come on! Video? Still gonna happen with most sites as video processing and streaming will need it's own resources that Flash is already sucking.

4) Before it's your iPad, it's Apple's iPad. They are the ones selling the device so they have the right to choose the best way to do it. If HP wants to shoehorn Windows 7 into a 10" tablet, that is there choice. It doesn't fit my needs and it'll only sell to a few odd people, but they have the right. Apple has decided to make an OS to suit the HW, if someone doesn't like then don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it then they'll reevaluate their business model.

5) It's coming to the end of Winter in 2010. People have been complaining about and blaming Apple for the lack of Flash since January 2007. Over three years, yet Adobe still hasn't released Flash for any other smartphone on the market. It seems clear there are issues with Flash that Adobe only recently has decided to address. On top of that, Mozilla has decided to disable Flash 10.1 in Firefox Mobile for Maemo because of performance issues. Personally, I can't wait until Flash 10.1 officially get released to all these mobile OSes so we can see just how badly it performs.

Flash has benefits, too, but none of them are on a handheld device with an ARM processor.

Credit for this goes to solipsism.

If you're REALLY interested, I suggest you read this article.

AppleInsider | Inside Apple's iPad: Adobe Flash

To those who keep saying HTML5 is years away, then I say, what do you call this?

Jilion - SublimeVideo

CPU ran at 19% while viewing this video, as opposed to the 90%+ on flash rendering!!!


.

Great viewing: This vid points out the realities of this argument, oh, and if you think flash or flash lite will be installed on window 7 mobile OS, think again. Not til the end of the year, coz the lazyasses at Adobe haven't been able to condense the code package yet.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2xrAAhAsDw]YouTube - Ten Myths of Apple's iPad: 2. It needs Flash[/ame]

Reasons why flash is bad.

1) Flash is proprietary! Made by one and only one vendor. Of course, Adobe wants to continue the addiction. "The web must have Flash."

2) The only way that developers can make Flash based products is to buy the patented developer tools from Adobe. Web content used to be open source before Microsoft pushed Adobe to try and kill quicktime and monopolise web content. Quicktime is free and open.

3) The only way consumers can view Flash content is via patented software provided by Adobe for their platform of choice. And if it doesn't run well on your platform, tough!

4) There are no open source plug ins.


5) The resources needed for OSX are in some cases double compared to Windows.

The recommended (not minimum) requirements for flash are as follows.

Windows 1920x1080

Intel Core Duo 1.8GHz, AMD Athlon™ 64 X2 4200+ processor (or equivalent)

128MB of RAM

64MB of VRAM


OSX 1920x1080

Intel Core Duo 2.66GHz processor (or equivalent)

512MB of RAM

128MB of VRAM

The system requirements for OSX is double for CPU and VRAM and insane for RAM. So clearly this is an Adobe optimising issue on OSX not something Windows users face.

6) There is no 64-bit version of Flash for Mac OS X. What, Apple is supposed to pick up the slack for THEIR product ?

7) The reason why Adobe trolls here keep shooting the argument down to keep Adobe alive, is,......HTML 5 is free and can be written in a text editor.

[jesse33125]

Jobs is a loser...

[EddieLeonard]

I totally agree that flash should be banned from apple. Yeah it sucks not to see it on the website your on but seriously, apple knows what they are doing, thats why you don't see Macs getting viruses or anything like that bc they avoid stupid programs like flash. Technology changes everyday, theres gotta be something out there more safe that will come along.

macs don't have viruses because the macs arnt as popular as windows. don't get me wrong but macs are amazing and as soon as i can im getting one but more business people use windows so if hackers want passwords to bank accounts and things they will target a windows user. as soon as more business people start to use macs because they are way better than windows, that is when you will see a rise in viruses for macs

the mac has only recently jumped up in the computer market. you can thank the iphone for that. it introduced people to apple. the sales of macs will rise and will get so many more viruses in the future

[Dorkenstein909]

yea wtf steve? this aint no dictatorship

[NSXrebel]

macs don't have viruses because the macs arnt as popular as windows. don't get me wrong but macs are amazing and as soon as i can im getting one but more business people use windows so if hackers want passwords to bank accounts and things they will target a windows user. as soon as more business people start to use macs because they are way better than windows, that is when you will see a rise in viruses for macs

the mac has only recently jumped up in the computer market. you can thank the iphone for that. it introduced people to apple. the sales of macs will rise and will get so many more viruses in the future

You sound like a child that isn't old enough to remember computer history. Before OS X, Macs did have viruses, to include OS 9 and older systems. You can't be using that excuse, that Macs have security through obscurity. There were also other Operating Systems that were more obscure than Macs, yet they had tons of viruses.

[nPoika]

yea wtf steve? this aint no dictatorship

Haha. I can picture the next disclaimer for any Apple product:

1) By purchasing any products manifactured by the Apple Inc.

i. You willingly hand over any free will within your possesion.

ii. You will continue to defend Apple products and their flaws especially in regards to unsupported software and sub modern standards of todays hardware

iii. You will idolize Steve Jobs and discontinue social interaction with any peer that doesn't if conversion was unsuccessful.

:P

[Kroo]

That said Apple is definitely taking the wrong approach with their iDevices. Flash is mainstream technology that is used every day, for both leisure and productivity.

Apple's choice is Apples choice, so being wrong is not a fact, just your narrow opinion. They make their choice on commercial, political and safety reasons on behalf of their product and with 33.75 million iPhones sold to date (Q4 2009), I don't think many iPhone users are missing flash at all.

It would be a little more understandable if Apple had their own propietry web platform that was in direct competition with Adobe flash, but the fact of the matter is they don't. Steve Jobs is just being a stubborn ***. If he were to be a little more open minded and allow Apple to colaborate with Adobe then through co-operation he'd render his own arguements false. That is in my opinion why he won't allow it. He's put his foot in his mouth and isn't too keen on bad publicity.

Do you understand what proprietary means?? Apple do have a web platform, it's called quicktime, and it's not proprietary, it's free, and open source, always was and always will be. It was once the leader in web embedded video and audio until Microsoft funded macromedia to enhance flash in an attempt to kill quicktime. If adobe made flash open source, we wouldn't be having this debate, as someone would have made add-ons to make flash a comprehensive utility. I don't think web designers would be happy to pay for ANOTHER proprietary utility to embed content.

This goes for many other aspects of the iDevices. The only thing that's actually got Apple in front is the diverse app store. The hardware of their devices is behind industry standards come each release.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that multitouch screen phone with accelerometer, light senses, with thousands of application add-on from one source, prior to the iPhone??????

I saw someone say that Adobe should ditch flash an start from scratch with something 'innovational'. That's the most absurd thing I've heard yet. It took Macromedia/Adobe many years to bring flash to the major platform it is today. This was due to many reason, like technical limitations on consumers (both computer and internet connection) aswell as trust needed to install a plugin. Innovation can easily be found within the upgrades that come every year or so.

Flash looks good from the outside, but underneath, it has security holes you could drive a tank through. They hold the license and have never allowed competition once it was pushed to 90% of platforms. They haven't (or won't) been able to code a proper flash plugin for UNIX-LINUX ever. Where's the choice when 90% of web content is controlled by one utility? You have to buy a license to use the tools to embed flash and you have one plugin to run it. Monopolies are never good for anyone. The push for HTML5, Javascripting and the rest will only allow greater choice, and that will push innovation on the web even higher.

Summin' up. It's Steve's attitude in situations like this that will result in a loss of presence in the market.

I'm sure Wall St is shaking from this little revelation. Three years with no flash on the iPhone and its market share continues to out grow all others. Remind me not to get share market advice from you.

Windows Phone 7 is lookin' pretty spiffy. I'm sure they'll look at the complaints amongst iPhone users and go "K, let's not do that"... Atleast Microsoft have been able to admit when they're wrong ;]

Agreed. W7 is by far the most stable OS microsoft has produced, and about time too, but W7 mobile hasn't been tested publicly yet, so the proof will be in the pudding. Just because you say they are wrong doesn't make their choice wrong. You don't like like, so? I don't care about flash on the phone, am I wrong too? Apple aren't wrong for excluding flash, just pushing a point and trying to return web content to its once free and open source. W7 mobile OS will not roll out the door with flash/flash lite on it. Adobe haven't even finished it. Christmas, if you're lucky. Write it down. Oh BTW, there is no flash on Blackberry or Palm either.

Oh and for lulz, Adobe Flash Player 10.0.45.2 is listed on the Mac Downloads page at apple.com - as a staff pick! :P

What other choice is there?? Because flash was migrated onto OSX from OS9, and has subsequently evolved into a behemoth, Apple couldn't turn back from allowing flash plugin for Safari. Pity flash content is protected by license, otherwise we would have a choice other than Adobe flash. New devices, well that's a different story. I for one have disabled flash on my browser because it's rubbish (adobe did so deliberately), any Mac user will tell you how awful it is. Adobe have the SDK for OSX 10.6.2, so why can't they code a proper plugin for gods sake?? Apple don't make OSX just to run flash, Adobe are supposed to make a plugin to run on OSX. If Flash was not proprietary, then Apple or anyone else for that matter could troubleshoot the sloppy code and fix it.

[nPoika]

Apple's choice is Apples choice, so being wrong is not a fact, just your narrow opinion. They make their choice on commercial, political and safety reasons on behalf of their product and with 33.75 million iPhones sold to date (Q4 2009), I don't think many iPhone users are missing flash at all.

Obviously any economic strategy is upto Apple, I've neved denied that. This entire comment session is about posting our individual point of views. Your point of view is apple is making a perfect decision, mine is blatantly the opposite in this regards. If you were to look at it from another angle you'd see that our opinions are as narrow as the other.

Do you understand what proprietary means?? Apple do have a web platform, it's called quicktime, and it's not proprietary, it's free, and open source, always was and always will be.

Proprietary: protected by trademark or patent or copyright; made or produced or distributed by one having exclusive rights;
Proprietary (software): The term "proprietary software" is often used to mean computer software which is neither free nor open source.

Now, let's take a look at quicktime. The actual technology isn't open source. To quote wikipedia: "QuickTime is an extensible proprietary multimedia framework developed by Apple, capable of handling various formats of digital video, 3D models, sound, text, animation, music, panoramic images, and interactivity"

That puts a pretty nasty hole in your argument.

As it stands, Quicktime is not a suitable competitor for Flash. Whilst it can do certain tasks that Flash can do, there is a vast ammount of functions that make Flash much more superior.

If adobe made flash open source, we wouldn't be having this debate, as someone would have made add-ons to make flash a comprehensive utility. I don't think web designers would be happy to pay for ANOTHER proprietary utility to embed content.

Web developers aren't going to want to replace their current working websites for open source equivilants either. So Adobe creating an open source platform would be just as pointless.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that multitouch screen phone with accelerometer, light senses, with thousands of application add-on from one source, prior to the iPhone??????

Multitouch, whilst handy is more of a gimmicky feature. Most of the activities I do on my iPhone only require a single finger. Accelerometers were available in HTC phones prior to the iPhone's release. Light senses are nothing more than a gimmick and actually don't work well enough for me to count as a feature. (that's just my point of view). Apples initial marketing paved the way for their success by convincing developers to submit apps prior to it's release. This is a great strategy and I praise them for the idea.

Flash looks good from the outside, but underneath, it has security holes you could drive a tank through. They hold the license and have never allowed competition once it was pushed to 90% of platforms. They haven't (or won't) been able to code a proper flash plugin for UNIX-LINUX ever. Where's the choice when 90% of web content is controlled by one utility? You have to buy a license to use the tools to embed flash and you have one plugin to run it. Monopolies are never good for anyone. The push for HTML5, Javascripting and the rest will only allow greater choice, and that will push innovation on the web even higher.

I'm curious, when was the last time you've been hacked through a flash application? Personally I've never been hacked, and I've been to some purdy seedy sites. I'm not denying that there are security holes, I'm just denying that they're of a great (if any) concern to your average user. This would be why a toggleable plugin for safari would be dandy. Adobe also have developed a full plug in for Linux, so I'm not entirely sure what you're on about there.

As I stated earlier. HTML/Javascript have the bonus of stock standard compatibility but they don't come anywhere near the ammount of functionality that Flash has to offer. Another draw back of the browser native languages is that often when used to emulate Flash interactivity they can be very unstable and buggy. This obviously isn't always the case but has often occured in my experience.

I'm sure Wall St is shaking from this little revelation. Three years with no flash on the iPhone and its market share continues to out grow all others. Remind me not to get share market advice from you.

I think you failed to see my point. The message I was trying to get accross is that if Adobe continues to refuse features that are available in other options then consumers are very likely to seek alternatives.

Think of it this way. If you had a brand of car that you'd trusted for your entire life, you enjoyed the car and everything about it. One draw back of this go-go-mobile is it didn't have air-con. Every other car company has had cars with A/C for the last 5 years, but your car company's CEO was adament that it wasn't worth your time. Are you likely to stick around with one that's making choices for you?

Agreed. W7 is by far the most stable OS microsoft has produced, and about time too, but W7 mobile hasn't been tested publicly yet, so the proof will be in the pudding. Just because you say they are wrong doesn't make their choice wrong. You don't like like, so? I don't care about flash on the phone, am I wrong too? Apple aren't wrong for excluding flash, just pushing a point and trying to return web content to its once free and open source. W7 mobile OS will not roll out the door with flash/flash lite on it. Adobe haven't even finished it. Christmas, if you're lucky. Write it down. Oh BTW, there is no flash on Blackberry or Palm either.

Flash is on it's way to both Blackberry and Palm Pre (WebOs)

What other choice is there?? Because flash was migrated onto OSX from OS9, and has subsequently evolved into a behemoth, Apple couldn't turn back from allowing flash plugin for Safari. Pity flash content is protected by license, otherwise we would have a choice other than Adobe flash. New devices, well that's a different story. I for one have disabled flash on my browser because it's rubbish (adobe did so deliberately), any Mac user will tell you how awful it is. Adobe have the SDK for OSX 10.6.2, so why can't they code a proper plugin for gods sake?? Apple don't make OSX just to run flash, Adobe are supposed to make a plugin to run on OSX. If Flash was not proprietary, then Apple or anyone else for that matter could troubleshoot the sloppy code and fix it.

Well you see your statement here doesn't make loads of sense either. Amongst web developers Apple users ar quite a large percentage. Quite possibly even the majority. Now with Adobe's software being the industry standard tools for web development and design, why would they sabotage their own code. That would in effect lower the potential income they could be making. Had it not crossed your mind that maybe Adobe have done everything in their power to make Flash run as smoothly as possible on OSX but OSX isn't quite suitable for it?.

Obviously both our opinions in that regards are mere speculation and I'm not willing to point fingers at either corperation, without some sort of substantial evidence that no one here is likely to obtain.

Overall, my point is Apple should allow their consumers to make the decision. I'm not renting my iPhone, I bought it.

Cheers,
nPoika.

[Kroo]

There's some bias in your argument which don't seem to have the knowledge of the facts or politics on this issue. You say this is wrong or that is wrong but where are the facts to back up your case?

Nice to see you can find wiki, but please don't cut and paste wiki stuff, it's insulting. I've been in web design and photographic elements for 16 years, and need no lecture, thank you. Quicktime allows development of add-ons and plugins and codecs, always has, open technology. It used to be the industry standard until Adobe hijacked the web. Adobe flash is closed technology! Never said QT was a competitor, how can they compete in an environment cornered by one company that has 90% of the market?? I don't like monopolies at all. Even if someone came up with a formatted render plugin for flash, they wouldn't allow it.

Web design changes all the time, javascript, and html5 are ongoing and up and coming. Change change change, what used to take years to develop now takes months and the pace is getting quicker. Being updated on javascript is a bore and I hate it, but it is emerging. Flash will one day die, like all older technology, unless they adapt to newer, faster and cleaner rendering tools. We change our design standards to match the market place, and the uptake of newer standards, every year. Fact! I wish it wouldn't, but our business revolves around it.

Before you throw your heart at Flash, you'd better read Adobes own security warnings: Adobe - Security Advisories: APSA09-03 - Security Advisory for Adobe Reader, Acrobat and Flash Player
Don't want viruses or trojans thanks, sorry you're happy risking your system to the unknown.

Market forces decide the success or failure of anything, and as of today, iphone/no flash, is still kicking goals. iPad? Well we shall see. I reckon it could flop.

On the blackberry front, sorry but that's wrong. Adobe isn't writing for the RIM architecture. They talk about it, but I bet you it won't be in the next 12-18 months, so that's not soon at all. As for Palm, Meh! Full flash capabilities are not possible on any mobile device as of today.

Don't give me that argument about OSX not being suitable for flash, give me a break. What's your experience about UNIX architecture? Flash is a plugin for gods sake, not photoshop. 99% of all the third party apps I use, which are high end and demand respect for their development and input, have no problem whatsoever running well, fast and without issues, on OSX. One stupid web plugin can't render simple video without massive memory leakage, that's sloppy. Have Adobe done everything in their power to make flash run smoothly? I don't know, is that a fact or just an assumption based on something? Please let me in on your secrets.

I don't like Apples locking down and control of GUI and mobile substrate on their mobile devices, and if I didn't like it strongly enough, I wouldn't buy them. People ***** and moan about this all the time, well all I can advise is, people, don't buy the damn things!! If Apple let their consumers decide, we'd end up with a camel designed by consensus. "But I want this and I want that".

Do yourself a favour and have a read of this article and the following forum comments. You may just be enlightened.
AppleInsider | Inside Apple's iPad: Adobe Flash

[Kroo]

Hey TROLL. what it like there in the Adobe office today?

[unison999]

I'd say entertaining for Rota since he's got flash to play with, I've got no flash so I have nothing to do but sit here and argue like what you are doing Kroo.

[ty22]

YouTube - Flash Player 10.1 on Motorola Droid

Coming to Palm Pre real soon too.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpI6gA9cuME]YouTube - Flash on Palm Pre[/ame]

[nPoika]

Hahah. You're fun. Pretty hypocritical but fun. I honestly don't care how long you've been in the industry for. I've dabbled in it out of choice for the last 5 years. It really doesn't make a difference. Believe it or not, Wikipedia is actually a reliable source. But hey, I'm sure in your 15 years of god-like state, you knew that.

Javascript has been around for... how many years?! Yep... a bit slow to bust out some market domination. Face it, flash is here to stay and it's not going anywhere. Not atleast until someone comes up with somthing revolutionary.

I've not thrown my heart at anyone buddy, so no need to get jealous. Going by your logic, that'd mean you wouldn't touch anything with 1's and 0's. Every piece of software is bound to have security holes. You're lovely OSX Has/had (I'm not sure if it's been addressed) one that I'm well aware of. This one allowed people to take control of the Mac in somethin' silly like less than 5 minutes!

So your argument is flawed. If you were seriously worried about security holes then you'd not even connect to the internet in the first place.

As I'd asked before, when was the last time you've been hacked by a Flash application.

Quite honestly, I've not dabbled in UNIX architecture. Nor do I claim to know everything I'm making nothing more than speculations, as you are. Mine are based on common sense, yours are based Apple being perfect.

And there you said so yourself. You'd not buy a product if a limitation bothered you. So that'd mean you just confirmed my point that you entertained yourself over. Good job!

As I've stated earlier. I'm not on either side of PC and Mac shibang. They both have their cons. I've not stated that Apple are crap or inadequate, I've just passed out my opinion. You're not in any position to accuse myself or any other of being biased. The worst thing you can do in any debate is to make obvious that you're a hypocrite.

Cheers,

[unison999]

I do not get all this arguement about flash, if there is no demand for it we would not have this arguement. If there is no demand for it Jobs would not slander flash make it seem worthless for nothing. If it is worthless people would not care if they have it, this whole thread would not exist.
Obviously people want flash on their device, Jobs sick of hearing about it. Instead of having people seeing it as weakness on his "revolutionary entertainment device", he try to redirect your attention to how weak flash is. At the dawn of iPad sales, not able to play flash on a entertainment device is an Achiles heel. It may not matter to some but obviously it matters to many people or else this would not be addressed by Jobs himself. From his response Jobs is not going to allow flash anyways, so without flash to me iPad is just a bigger less functional iPhone. I see absolutely no reason to owning one.

[michaelgazin]

To the level of masses? Apple wants mass!! LOL your comment is so retarded! Apple wants more and more people to fuel their profit! If they could clone us they would. This ain't some VIP company we're talking here.

zomg, you're so right, my comment is SOOO retarded!@ You sound so smart, I bet you could do a WAYYY better job than Jobs at running Apple, because Apple has SUCKED as a company so far. You should apply!!! Show them how smart you are!!!