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Thread: Abuse Detection Technology?

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Originally Posted by viperstarpoint9 Good idea for apple to implement this. Here's where it pisses me off. I go to an apple store to buy an iPhone for the first
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperstarpoint9 View Post
    Good idea for apple to implement this. Here's where it pisses me off. I go to an apple store to buy an iPhone for the first time and tell them i want insurance on the phone. They say there is no insurance available for the iPhone. All they offer is apple care. I say no I want real honest to god insurance. All i can get is a warranty that only insures me from manufactures defects. F*** that I'm going to use the warranty like insurance. AT&T won't insure it, Apple only charges you $70 for an extended manufactures warranty. Where is the consumer protection in that.
    This explains my frustration exactly, instead of Apple offering some sort of insurance for their phones, they're just going to make it even harder for someone to get a replacement for their iPhone even if they legitimately did not do anything on purpose to break it. When I bought my 3GS and gave my old 3G to my mom, she asked me if there was any kind of insurance that she could get for it and when I told her no she responded by saying, "Why would any company today not offer some sort of insurance?"
    And that's an extremely important question, why not? Maybe they just want to make more profit where possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j3rman View Post
    Yea but what if you accidentally drop it and it still works fine. But then a month later, the board gets fried. They will play the "You dropped it so we will not fix it" card even if it is still their fault. This is some BS.

    If it happens the way you describe, yes that would suck ***, but it appears the system would probably timestamp all entries so if someone at apple who actually analyzes the abuse data has some sort of common sense and techinical expertise would hopefully see that an event occurring a month or more before the actual HW failure probably has very little chance of being the real reason a the device has failed.

    That being said there a lot of IFs and there are many chances for apple to f it up big time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jay316 View Post
    Its impossible for Apple to tell the difference between "accidentally dropped" and thrown on the floor. No amount of software and sensors will tell them that
    Unless I'm missing something here ( I could be wrong) most warranties do not cover accidental damage such as dropping, so while I totally get the point you are making, it still wouldn't matter as drop damage is not covered by any warranty (extended third party insurance excluded of course)
    Last edited by logicbomb.de; 08-07-2009 at 03:30 PM.

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    What's Jailbreak? Perlova's Avatar
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    The sad part of this is that Apple selling hardware is just incidental. What is really of value is their ideas, ingenuity, customer service, name and inovations.
    What does it real cost to manufacture an iPhone in China? Probably about $10......
    There is a chain of stores in Canada called Princess Auto. Their motto is "The sale is not final until you are satisfied". You can bring back a defective tool to them 5 years after you purchased it, even if it was damaged by your own stupidity. They just hand you a new one.

    Funny thing is, there is a steady stream of customers at their counters, with buggies piled high with items. But not too many at the returns counter.

    Apple could learn a few things from them about customer service....
    "Where are we going and why am I in this handbag?"

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    Isn't stuff like laptops and phones covered on house insurance?
    16GB iPhone 4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay316 View Post
    Isn't stuff like laptops and phones covered on house insurance?
    yeah it is,

    But you'd have to burn your house down to replace your phone, lol!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay316 View Post
    Once you purchase a product surely its up to you if you put it in a blender or drive over it in a car, what right do Apple have to stop us abusing our stuff? thats like saying you can't slap your girlfriend, she's your girlfriend, you own her, you can do what you want to her lol
    haha i dont know whether to smh or laugh

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    It sounds like a great idea on a tech level. You can test a product so much. Best testers are consumers, Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisj979 View Post
    Like Jay316 said it's impossible to tell if it were an accident or not. Also in Houston these past few days the temperature outside has been 99 or higher, so If I go in a jog using my iPhone for one of it's purposes, I'm abusing it, So I guess I should only workout in cool temperatures and try not to break a sweat also.

    As for bluaeon, you should think "outside the box" and stop thinking everyone is trying to scam Apple. Accidents DO HAPPEN, everyone is not perfect. I've dropped my iPhone before I definatly would not call it abuse, I was not TRYING to drop it.

    As for the girlfriend thing that was a joke, notice he put LOL. Stop being so anal.
    ummm... you guys are missing the point. a drop is a drop. apple doesn't care is it was an "accident". all they care about it if was dropped. any kind of drop will void your warranty. don't believe me? try going into an apple store and saying, i accidently dropped my iphone and it broke. but i didn't mean to drop it and it was an accident. they will laugh at you tell you it's your fault and they aren't fixing it. the warranty is meant to cover manufacturer defects. so no matter how you drop it or your intentions, you're screwed!

    no the other stuff about timelines and how apple could use that against you is very true, imho.

    and yes, the girlfriend thing was a joke. i agree with you... dude needs to get that corn cobb out of his butt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotaryheadrx7 View Post
    First why do people think that Apple's warranty is against accidental damage as if it were insurance? Their warranty is for defects against craftsmanship and materials. If you accidentally drop your phone or purposely toss it on the ground is not Apple's fault/problem. Take responsibility. If you crash your car you don't go to the dealer and say whoops it was an accident so its on you to fix it.

    Third those thinking that they just take the parts and resell them so its no loss to Apple obviously knows nothing about manufacturing and business and the business impact. They "resell" the parts to not lose AS MUCH as they would if they just toss them, no profit involved. How do I know this: manufacturing/industrial engineer.
    My take on this new added patent as a Economy major, Investor, Tax Preparer/Advisor and Entrepreneur.

    1) Fortunately, we're able to buy insurance for our cars in which said insurance would either repair our car or pay us the value of the car if its unrepairable. Many devices (cameras, Dell computers, etc.) offer insurance like accidental care just in case of accidents. Yet Apple has failed to offer such insurance; just a extended crappy warranty. So yes, Apple is at fault and it should be their problem for not providing the choice to a consumer that uses one of their devices (iPhone), which can be easily dropped, have water (condensation) damage, or even be chewed out by my dog.

    2) Apple and business. Every hand-held device they sale = 150%-200% or more profit. Nothing less. Even their refurbish products net them at least 100-185% profit. This is not including the fact that 100% of their product expenses are deductible; like parts, shipping, manufacturing, employee pay, etc. So even if they were to resell parts, there will be profit, since again, expenses are deductible.

    This new input device Apple has patented might or might not be a disaster, but I am very sure it isn't to the benefit of the consumer. To those that are on Apple side and are against fraudulent iPhone claims; all Apple needs to do is have a Accident Care insurance for their devices. And if someone with a fraudulent claim wants to get a new iPhone or have it repaired without the insurance, then Apple can turn them away.
    Will this Accident insurance be profitable for Apple? Of course not, which is why they do not offer it. Because unlike car insurance where your insurance premium can go up after an "accident", Apple won't be able to do the same.
    Last edited by Greeneval; 08-07-2009 at 04:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeneval View Post
    My take on this new added patent as a Economy major, Investor, Tax Preparer/Advisor and Entrepreneur.

    1) Fortunately, we're able to buy insurance for our cars in which said insurance would either repair our car or pay us the value of the car if its unrepairable. Many devices (cameras, Dell computers, etc.) offer insurance like accidental care just in case of accidents. Yet Apple has failed to offer such insurance; just a extended crappy warranty. So yes, Apple is at fault and it should be their problem for not providing the choice to a consumer that uses one of their devices (iPhone), which can be easily dropped, have water (condensation) damage, or even be chewed out by my dog.

    2) Apple and business. Every hand-held device they sale = 150%-200% or more profit. Nothing less. Even their refurbish products net them at least 100-185% profit. This is not including the fact that 100% of their product expenses are deductible; like parts, shipping, manufacturing, employee pay, etc. So even if they were to resell parts, there will be profit, since again, expenses are deductible.

    This new input device Apple has patented might or might not be a disaster, but I am very sure it isn't to the benefit of the consumer. To those that are on Apple side and are against fraudulent iPhone claims; all Apple needs to do is have a Accident Care insurance for their devices. And if someone with a fraudulent claim wants to get a new iPhone or have it repaired without the insurance, then Apple can turn them away.
    Will this Accident insurance be profitable for Apple? Of course not, which is why they do not offer it. Because unlike car insurance where your insurance premium can go up after an "accident", Apple won't be able to do the same.
    Interesting point however I disagree with your point that its their fault for not offering insurance. Insurance is a service, a nice one to have but in no way a requirement. You (more than likely) aren't insured by your dealer, you are insured by a third party. So its not your dealer's fault if there is a lapse in your insurance, or if your insurance policy is crappy or doesn't cover X, Y, or Z.

    Second, I ask where you get these numbers from. I hope they aren't from these "parts" breakdowns that people use that in no way take into account the SUPPLY CHAIN and the biggest cost of all: RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. Too many people take a parts list and think they understand the cost. The part costs xyz right? They don't come together by themselves. Engineers are expensive
    Last edited by rotaryheadrx7; 08-07-2009 at 05:12 PM.

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    Is there any way that Apple could use this to determine if an iPhone is jailbroken and keep some sort of log inside the phone. Then if we try to use our warranty they say we aren't eligible for any service because of this? Just an idea...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotaryheadrx7 View Post
    Interesting point however I disagree with your point that its their fault for not offering insurance. Insurance is a service, a nice one to have but in no way a requirement. You (more than likely) aren't insured by your dealer, you are insured by a third party. So its not your dealer's fault if there is a lapse in your insurance, or if your insurance policy is crappy or doesn't cover X, Y, or Z.

    Second, I ask where you get these numbers from. I hope they aren't from these "parts" breakdowns that people use that in no way take into account the SUPPLY CHAIN and the biggest cost of all: RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. Too many people take a parts list and think they understand the cost. The part costs xyz right? They don't come together by themselves. Engineers are expensive
    I believe metaphors and analogies are not meant to be taken literally but are used for similarities. I.E. my car takes me home. My iPhone gives me directions to take me home. I can buy a car part from the main manufacturer but I can also buy it from a third party source..anyways.

    I agree, no way Apple is required to provide an accidental insurance type policy and they don't because it's not profitable. Which is the entire point of my earlier post. Unfortunately, you can't get a third party device insurance for the iphone like you could with a Canon camera. Why? I not sure, but I believe its because Apple doesn't allow just anyone to make or use parts for their devices. So in a sense, it is Apple's fault. Apple doesn't allow anyone to intrude upon any of their devices, as such, no third party electronic insurance is available for the iPhone.

    The "numbers" are relative to my earlier post in that, what Apple does, is for profit and hardly beneficial to the consumer. That is, the expenses for the supply chain, research and development, etc. are just that, expenses, which like I said expenses are deductible.

    Here's an example of a relative senario of:
    iPhone Development:
    iPhone research & Development team cost: $100 million
    Supply Chain cost: $100 million
    Manufacturing cost: $100 million
    MISC cost: $100 Million
    Sales of $600 iPhone, 1 million units = $600 million
    Net Profit: $600 million - $400 million = $200 million Profit
    (note: this isn't including App. store profit)

    Here's an example of relative senario if they had an Insurance policy:
    iPhone Insurance policy:
    iPhone expense (parts & research & etc) = $400
    Insurance cost: $100 for 1 year.
    Iphone sale: $600 per unit
    Apple net profit is: $600 + $100 - $400 = $300
    Iphone damage beyond repair, new iPhone or refurbish one: $400
    Apple net profit per unit with their insurance if they had to replace an iphone = -$100.

    I know as an engineer you know what it takes to get a product out into the consumer and I am sure you understand the cost as well. But I do not think you know how much profit Apple actually makes from each sale of an iPhone unit. I'm not sure either, but as an investor, I've seen their financial reports and they do a very good job of cutting down expenses and maximizing profit. All I am trying to say is that, Apple will not do anything to benefit their consumers if their isn't any profit.
    Last edited by Greeneval; 08-07-2009 at 06:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluaeon View Post

    as for your girlfriend quote... thats just wrong... hope you dont slap your girlfriend cuz buddy, you dont own anybody... you just own you, and yourself alone... not even your wife. it may be a joke when you said it, but people can interpret them in so many ways, especially on the net.
    Man have a coke and a smile-

    I slap my girl around all the time, infact she slaps me around too.
    its called 'abusive love' or more widely known as foreplay.

    as for ownership, well Ill show you the title to her if you wanna go that route.

    anyway...I think this is nonsense, what if you go on a roller coaster?
    whose to say that when I goto sixflags and ride the King da ka which goes like 150mph in under 2 seconds that it wont register as a fall?

    What if I take a shower and the phone is on the counter , never gets wet but the sensor reads moisture in the air.
    I mean its all GREY area imo.
    I could argue that its apples fault for not using moisture barriers on the device and so forth.


    This is just them locking in a idea, doesnt mean they're are actually using it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeneval View Post
    I believe metaphors and analogies are not meant to be taken literally but are used for similarities. I.E. my car takes me home. My iPhone gives me directions to take me home. I can buy a car part from the main manufacturer but I can also buy it from a third party source..anyways.

    I agree, no way Apple is required to provide an accidental insurance type policy and they don't because it's not profitable. Which is the entire point of my earlier post. Unfortunately, you can't get a third party device insurance for the iphone like you could with a Canon camera. Why? I not sure, but I believe its because Apple doesn't allow just anyone to make or use parts for their devices. So in a sense, it is Apple's fault. Apple doesn't allow anyone to intrude upon any of their devices, as such, no third party electronic insurance is available for the iPhone.

    The "numbers" are relative to my earlier post in that, what Apple does, is for profit and hardly beneficial to the consumer. That is, the expenses for the supply chain, research and development, etc. are just that, expenses, which like I said expenses are deductible.

    Here's an example of a relative senario of:
    iPhone Development:
    iPhone research & Development team cost: $100 million
    Supply Chain cost: $100 million
    Manufacturing cost: $100 million
    MISC cost: $100 Million
    Sales of $600 iPhone, 1 million units = $600 million
    Net Profit: $600 million - $400 million = $200 million Profit
    (note: this isn't including App. store profit)

    Here's an example of relative senario if they had an Insurance policy:
    iPhone Insurance policy:
    iPhone expense (parts & research & etc) = $400
    Insurance cost: $100 for 1 year.
    Iphone sale: $600 per unit
    Apple net profit is: $600 + $100 - $400 = $300
    Iphone damage beyond repair, new iPhone or refurbish one: $400
    Apple net profit per unit with their insurance if they had to replace an iphone = -$100.

    I know as an engineer you know what it takes to get a product out into the consumer and I am sure you understand the cost as well. But I do not think you know how much profit Apple actually makes from each sale of an iPhone unit. I'm not sure either, but as an investor, I've seen their financial reports and they do a very good job of cutting down expenses and maximizing profit. All I am trying to say is that, Apple will not do anything to benefit their consumers if their isn't any profit.
    I completely agree with you that Apple (or any company for that matter) has the prerogative of turning a profit. In fact cutting down expenses and maximizing profits is an accurate job description of what I do day to day, trying to keep jobs in the USA. People think that returns/warranties have no impact on large companies which is very wrong. I could get into details of some of the hidden costs but its a little outside the scope of this thread.

    As far as whether they can turn a profit with an insurance policy, I'm sure they could if they designed it well. Insurance companies are in the business of making money also. It boils down to the classic business case of "make or buy" even though its a service. Its a risk that's probably not within Apple's scope.

    At any rate your numbers are much better than what most people quote around the net although with my experience still seem conservative and assuming you read their full report you should have an understanding of where their expenses were. Using your own numbers (even if they are conservative with the expenses) they are not turning 150-200% profit. (Not that I am holding you to those numbers as I know they were to make a point)

    There are third party insurance offerings for the iPhone, for example Square Trade offers insurance as well as home insurances will cover the phones so there are options even with Apple's design choices.

    Fact of the matter is its still not Apple's fault when my cat decides to test the laws of gravity. Whether he didn't know he'd cause damage or whether he was trying to get back at me for scaring him this morning.
    Last edited by rotaryheadrx7; 08-08-2009 at 07:24 AM.

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    Apple once again makes an attempt into controlling people's lives..lol..I think this is their way of saying, "WE DONT WANT YOU JAILBREAKING YOUR PHONES!", well I say to them, "STOP ACTING LIKE BABIES, AND THINK OF FAR MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES OTHER THAN THIS SEEMINGLY HARMLESS ACTIONS!"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoNightmareX View Post
    Bad news for people trying to take advantage of the warranties by saying it is hardware failure .
    Dang... That would explain this email quite well wouldn't it?

    "Your IPHONE 3G has been inspected by Apple technicians, who have determined that it has been subjected to accidental damage or misuse, which is not covered by the warranty or an Apple service contract. Therefore your original product is being returned to you unrepaired. You should expect to receive it within two business days along with a letter that gives details of this assessment. Apple will send you a separate email to indicate that this service request is complete and to provide the tracking information for the shipment."

    First time I've ever had an issue with apples repair services....
    Too bad the phone seems quite faulty, I've been using a pink razr while its gone, guh.... World of a difference..
    EPIK PHAIL!!!!


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    Just put your phone on your home owners policy or your parents.... for around $24.00 a year they will cover it... dropping, water etc... etc... however ours will not cover it from software issues that brick it....

    "Always remember your special and unique!"

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    This just proves Apple are a'holes.

    I had a phone and on the battery its got a moisture spot so they 'know' if it got wet or whatever. I tried to get the phone fixed and they said as its been wet they wont touch it. It never got wet but it was in a tropical place for a few months and the humidity probably got to it so they reckon it got wet.

    All these protections so they don't have to fix your phone.

    When this iPhone dies or gets stolen I will be getting any phone thats NOT from Apple.

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