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Thread: Microsoft Wows with Windows Phone 8 Unveiling

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Originally Posted by thazsar Let's, hypothetically, give MS the benefit of the doubt. Is it possible that MS might be trying to 'start over' in a sense w/ WP8 as
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    Quote Originally Posted by thazsar View Post
    Let's, hypothetically, give MS the benefit of the doubt. Is it possible that MS might be trying to 'start over' in a sense w/ WP8 as their new platform. Let's say, WP7.5 was their 'beta' and now 8 will be their backbone.
    I'm sure they're trying to start over, as WP8 won't be WindowsCE based any more and will use an NT Kernel based OS compiled for ARM. However, there's still no reason why older devices couldn't be updated to WP8 other than Microsoft refuses to do it. New WP8 devices will still use ARM architecture as well. I'd only understand Microsoft's refusal to update old devices if they were switching to x86 on phones/tablets or something similarly as major.

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    WP7 users are getting updates. They will just lack the hardware-based features the WP8 will have. They're not calling the WP7 update "Windows 8" because if it doesn't have all the same features and capabilities, it's not the same OS. Look how Apple has made people completely forget that.

    This is where you'll say "But WP8 apps won't run on WP7." No way around that, that f'n blows. But there are features on iOS 6 that *will* run on an iPad or iPhone 4 and Apple won't give them to you. And yes, you can run any iOS 6 app on a 3GS like you can a 4S but because of hardware, the experience will be different.

    Apple and MS are saying the same thing. "Deal with it or upgrade." These are the same business models.
    Last edited by brodimus; 06-21-2012 at 12:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    WP7 users are getting updates. They will just lack the hardware-based features the WP8 will have. They're not calling the WP7 update "Windows 8" because if it doesn't have all the same features and capabilities, it's not the same OS. Look how Apple has made people completely forget that.

    This is where you'll say "But WP8 apps won't run on WP7." No way around that, that f'n blows. But there are features on iOS 6 that *will* run on an iPad or iPhone 4 and Apple won't give them to you. And yes, you can run any iOS 6 app on a 3GS like you can a 4S but because of hardware, the experience will be different.

    Apple and MS are saying the same thing. "Deal with it or upgrade." These are the same business models.
    Amen. The fan boys always fail to see light unless the light is shining favorably for Apple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    WP7 users are getting updates. They will just lack the hardware-based features the WP8 will have. They're not calling the WP7 update "Windows 8" because if it doesn't have all the same features and capabilities, it's not the same OS. Look how Apple has made people completely forget that.
    WP7 hardware could easily run WP8 if Microsoft allowed it, it's just that they won't because of their strict change in hardware requirements, many of which are not technical limitations so much as arbitrary limitations based on their new requirements such as the change from 6 physical buttons to 5, the need for DX10 support vs DX9.

    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    This is where you'll say "But WP8 apps won't run on WP7." No way around that, that f'n blows. But there are features on iOS 6 that *will* run on an iPad or iPhone 4 and Apple won't give them to you. And yes, you can run any iOS 6 app on a 3GS like you can a 4S but because of hardware, the experience will be different.
    Yes, and I hate Apple for cutting features that will run on older devices. However, that's not nearly to the extent that Microsoft has taken it - cutting off ALL older device from a major OS update. Apple is bad, but fortunately it's not that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    Apple and MS are saying the same thing. "Deal with it or upgrade." These are the same business models.
    Sure, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm disgusted by waste, we are moving more and more towards being a throwaway society and I don't care for it at all. Personally, I hope WP8 is a bigger commercial failure than WP7 was. Or at the very least, I hope there are smart hackers out there that can figure out how to get WP8 on older devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaStA819 View Post
    Amen. The fan boys always fail to see light unless the light is shining favorably for Apple.
    Right, because omitting features from an OS update is totally the same thing as not allowing an OS update at all and turning all existing phones into orphan devices that won't run any newly developed apps. Yep, it's exactly the same.
    Last edited by GnatGoSplat; 06-21-2012 at 12:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GnatGoSplat View Post
    Right, because omitting features from an OS update is totally the same thing as not allowing an OS update at all and turning all existing phones into orphan devices that won't run any newly developed apps. Yep, it's exactly the same.
    I've been told when trying to update or download new apps on my iPhone 4 that I couldn't because my OS version wasn't X.XX. So this happens on Apple apps as well at times...probably not to the same scope of this, but it does happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaStA819 View Post
    I've been told when trying to update or download new apps on my iPhone 4 that I couldn't because my OS version wasn't X.XX. So this happens on Apple apps as well at times...probably not to the same scope of this, but it does happen.
    Yeah, but at least you can update your iPhone 4 to 5.1.1 and then you won't have that problem, or at least you shouldn't be having that problem.

    Poor WP7 phone owners, including people that bought their phones yesterday, won't be able to run new WP8 apps at all, ever. They are stuck with whatever apps are out there right now, which isn't all that many.

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    Again when you purchase something you are agreeing to pay the current price for the current platform as it sits. Your not paying for the guarantee to get updates. If that was the case no one would ever buy a new car because their current car should get all of the latest stuff, right??? Ummm NO! So stop crying about updates geez.

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    An interesting concept - do you work for MS? Most people have an expectation that something they buy will not be immediately obsolete. In the 90s computers were in about 6 months, but since then people have begun to expect a device to be supported for a bit longer than a couple of months.

    You can argue that 7.8 means they have not dropped them and I can argue that the WinMo 6.1 phone I have just put my wife's usual SIM in while she tries a new carrier in her iPhone is still good enough.

    It is. But good enough for what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by confucious View Post
    An interesting concept - do you work for MS? Most people have an expectation that something they buy will not be immediately obsolete. In the 90s computers were in about 6 months, but since then people have begun to expect a device to be supported for a bit longer than a couple of months.

    You can argue that 7.8 means they have not dropped them and I can argue that the WinMo 6.1 phone I have just put my wife's usual SIM in while she tries a new carrier in her iPhone is still good enough.

    It is. But good enough for what?

    Well if you bought a Windows Phone a few days ago then yeah it is about to be "obsolete", but the phone has been out a while now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Ninja View Post
    Again when you purchase something you are agreeing to pay the current price for the current platform as it sits. Your not paying for the guarantee to get updates. If that was the case no one would ever buy a new car because their current car should get all of the latest stuff, right??? Ummm NO! So stop crying about updates geez.
    Where did I ever say I expected updates to be guaranteed? They are fully in their right to do whatever they want. However, completely abandoning existing devices is worse than anything Apple or any other company has done. Microsoft doesn't even abandon their desktop OS customers this fast. All I'm saying is I hate the practice. Are you just that egotistical that someone has to be "crying" about something when they don't share your opinion?

    Car analogies are a silly comparison. You don't need to update a car you bought this year to drive on roads they build next year.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaStA819 View Post
    Well if you bought a Windows Phone a few days ago then yeah it is about to be "obsolete", but the phone has been out a while now...
    Not as long as the iPhone 3GS or 4, both of which are getting iOS6!
    Last edited by GnatGoSplat; 06-21-2012 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GnatGoSplat View Post
    Not as long as the iPhone 3GS or 4, both of which are getting iOS6!
    and what does iOS 6 bring to the 3GS or 4 exactly? Converting to Apple maps without the new features like turn-by-turn navigation. The only reason they are probably wanting everyone to switch to iOS 6 is because I would imagine Apple has to pay Google as long as people use Google maps through the iPhone or something...?

    iOS 6 is a huge disappointment...more useless fluff to add to my home screen like this ticket app that I probably can't remove without a jailbreak tweak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaStA819 View Post
    and what does iOS 6 bring to the 3GS or 4 exactly? Converting to Apple maps without the new features like turn-by-turn navigation. The only reason they are probably wanting everyone to switch to iOS 6 is because I would imagine Apple has to pay Google as long as people use Google maps through the iPhone or something...?
    I'm not happy about the omission of new features either, but the important thing is that when new apps are released or old ones updated, your iPhone will still be able to run them.

    WP7, 7.5, 7.8, will NOT run WP8 apps. 100% incompatible. That means new apps and app updates won't work. Wipe the phone and need to reinstall apps? Well too bad if the app was updated for WP8.

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    @Gnat Some aspects of WP8 would work on WP7 and are being implemented. Some flat out won't because of new hardware that new apps will be made to take advantage of. Different features, different capabilities = different OS. The WP7 phones are not being abandoned (at least not now), they are getting an update and nothing is stopping developers from still making apps for it. Is it a "major" update? No.

    But neither is iOS6. The only major update iOS has had in 2 years is Cydia.

    And Apple's not that bad? Really!?

    MS: Buy a new phone if you want WP8 apps.

    Apple: Buy a new phone if you want TURN BY TURN DIRECTIONS.

    They're not "that bad", they're worse. Get serious.
    Last edited by brodimus; 06-21-2012 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GnatGoSplat View Post
    I'm not happy about the omission of new features either, but the important thing is that when new apps are released or old ones updated, your iPhone will still be able to run them.

    WP7, 7.5, 7.8, will NOT run WP8 apps. 100% incompatible. That means new apps and app updates won't work. Wipe the phone and need to reinstall apps? Well too bad if the app was updated for WP8.
    I'm quite confident the older versions will still be available for 7.5-7.8 unless you have proof of this fact that you are stating...? You just seem to be trying to find any way possible to hate on Microsoft as many people on here do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    @Gnat Many aspects of WP8 would work on WP7. Some flat out won't because of new hardware that new apps will be made to take advantage of. Different features, different capabilities = different OS. The WP7 phones are not being abandoned (at least not now), they are getting an update and nothing is stopping developers from still making apps for it. Is it a "major" update? No.
    I'm not sure what you mean by an "aspect" of WP8 that would work on WP7? The update they're getting is a WP8 theme for the start screen, that's about it. They're essentially being abandoned. In a few months, WP8 will be the norm, developers will prefer to use that SDK, and eventually, nothing current will run on a WP7 phone.

    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    And Apple's not that bad? Really!?

    MS: Buy a new phone if you want WP8 apps.

    Apple: Buy a new phone if you want TURN BY TURN DIRECTIONS.

    They're not "that bad", they're worse. Get serious.
    You seriously think omission of a FEATURE is worse than not being able to run any new apps or updated apps AT ALL?
    I upgraded to an iPhone 4 last year, because my original iPhone couldn't be upgraded past 3.1.3, and a great deal of apps out there require iOS4 or iOS5. Believe me, not being able to run new apps or take app updates at all is much worse than not having turn-by-turn directions. It'll be worse for WP7 users because they don't have as many apps in the first place, and the market share is smaller, so fewer developers will be motivated to stick with coding for an obsolete SDK.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaStA819 View Post
    I'm quite confident the older versions will still be available for 7.5-7.8 unless you have proof of this fact that you are stating...? You just seem to be trying to find any way possible to hate on Microsoft as many people on here do.
    No proof, but I did read earlier this morning that WP8 will be using the same Windows Marketplace as WP7. Also with WP8 devices being backwards compatible, why would they keep a 2nd marketplace up for legacy devices? They did have a separate marketplace for WM6.5 apps, but they've already shut it down.

    This is the first time I've ever said anything negative about Microsoft. I swear by their desktop OS's.
    Last edited by GnatGoSplat; 06-21-2012 at 03:09 PM.

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    Yes, I think that, because there is no good reason to omit the feature. Also because apps written for WP8 will be made to advantage of the new hardware as I've repeated. Some of these apps will be made the same for the phone AND Surface. Therefore, the apps wouldn't do well on current WP hardware. That's MS' reasoning. Was the timing horrible? Absolutely. Everything about the way MS presented this new hardware has been terrible.

    Great, you can still install apps on a 3GS. But do you really think if I update or install an app on a 3GS, it's gonna be the same experience as on a 4S or iPad 3? No. And the app descriptions will tell you that. No one's making apps to run well on a 3GS. They could if they wanted to. Will devs stop making WP7 apps? Most likely. Scratch that, they will. But they could keep doing it if they wanted to.
    Last edited by brodimus; 06-21-2012 at 03:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    Yes, I think that, because there is no good reason to omit the feature. Apps written for WP8 will be made to advantage of the new hardware as I've repeated. Some of these apps will be made the same for the phone AND Surface. Therefore, the apps wouldn't do well on current WP hardware. That's MS' reasoning. Was the timing horrible? Absolutely.
    There's no reason they couldn't have updated old WP7.5 devices to WP8 either. WP8 supports better hardware, but it could run fine on existing hardware. It supports the same SoCs, same screen resolution. They did cut down the required # of buttons from 6 to 5, but that's no reason not to provide an update.
    Besides, you want turn-by-turn directions on your iPhone 3GS or 4, you could get TomTom or some other 3rd party app to do the same. At least you would be able to run said app!

    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    Great, you can still install apps on a 3GS. But do you really think if I update or install an app on a 3GS, it's gonna be the same experience as on a 4S or iPad 3? No. And the app descriptions will tell you that. No one's making apps to run well on a 3GS. They could if they wanted to. Will devs stop making WP7 apps? Most likely. Scratch that, they will. But they could keep doing it if they wanted to.
    Not the same experience, but probably not that bad either. I had iOS 4.3.x on a 3GS awhile back and it was fine, but it was originally an iOS 3.x device. At least it had an iOS 4, iOS 5, and soon to be iOS 6 update at all.

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    Depends on the app. Angry Birds or something similar would probably be the same, and if that's all you need, that's awesome. But an actual productive app like FourTrack or Beatmaker 2, that's gonna have major issues. You'll be able to "install" it, but "use" it, not so much.

    MS' logic is that you could probably "install" 8 on a Lumia, but "using" it wouldn't be worth it. There's a specific way they want the software and hardware to interact and you just wouldn't get the experience that MS wants to sell. Then word would spread about how sluggish it is and they'd be condemned for even bothering. There was no win here for them. They f'd this up, no question, but they're gonna go ahead with a fresh start and they have to at the rate the technology is improving and the perception of computing is changing. What Apple does for fun, is what they're doing out of necessity.
    Last edited by brodimus; 06-21-2012 at 04:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GnatGoSplat View Post
    Where did I ever say I expected updates to be guaranteed? They are fully in their right to do whatever they want. However, completely abandoning existing devices is worse than anything Apple or any other company has done. Microsoft doesn't even abandon their desktop OS customers this fast. All I'm saying is I hate the practice. Are you just that egotistical that someone has to be "crying" about something when they don't share your opinion?

    Car analogies are a silly comparison. You don't need to update a car you bought this year to drive on roads they build next year.



    Not as long as the iPhone 3GS or 4, both of which are getting iOS6!
    I wasn't directly talking to you I was just generally speaking. And when I say crying I don't mean it literally and honestly I wish I could work for MS and I prolly could but that's not the point. The point is people expect too much. If your a phone techie then you would know that when buying an older device then your not really future proofing yourself. If you want a phone that runs the best on WP8 then wait until those devices come out. Its all about research people. And if googling "will my phone run WP8" doesn't work then might wanna wait for something official instead of being impatient and buying it now abc then complaining about it like its MSs fault. People love to blame others for their own mishaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboyz View Post
    Microsoft usually does have some good ideas..they wouldn't still be here if the didn't. The phone is decent but not revolutionary. My question is this, how many applications do I have to choose from? 100,000..500,000>>?? I think not! More like 25,000 and that's the problem.
    That's the good thing, not the problem. No one can choose from 500,000 apps, with the majority simply crap, and hundreds or thousands of similar apps in each category. Even Apple recognizes this though their adverts crow about the quantity of apps.

    I'm rooting for MS to succeed with Surface though I expect them to screw it up like most things they do. One way to succeed is to emphasize quality, not quantity, in their app store. How to do this I don't know but if they chase numbers they'll never win that race.

    Quote Originally Posted by brodimus View Post
    Apple: Buy a new phone if you want TURN BY TURN DIRECTIONS.
    It's worse than that, since a number of free or paid Navigation apps provided that for years. And removing Google Maps removes transit routing, an important feature for millions of users. Way to go, Apple! Gotta keep those billions of dollars rolling into corporate vaults.
    Last edited by buggsy2; 06-24-2012 at 11:37 AM.

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