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Thread: "Software Should Have Screws:" saurik's TED Talk

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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReKCp9K_Jqw[/ame] Jay "saurik" Freeman, the creator of Cydia and Winterboard, gave a talk at an independent TED event in California on the fundamental philosophy behind jailbreaking. Given on Binary Day
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    MMi Staff Writer Paul Daniel Ash's Avatar
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    Default "Software Should Have Screws:" saurik's TED Talk
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReKCp9K_Jqw[/ame]


    Jay "saurik" Freeman, the creator of Cydia and Winterboard, gave a talk at an independent TED event in California on the fundamental philosophy behind jailbreaking. Given on Binary Day 10/10/10 at the inaugural TEDxAmericanRiviera in Santa Barbara, his talk compared jailbreakers with people who like to tinker with their cars.

    In a riff on the old open-source "hood welded shut" analogy, Jay noted how people like to customize their cars, adding things from air-fresheners and radar detectors to custom rims. He also referenced the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act that states that car manufacturers can't void car owners' warranties just by adding third-party accessories. And he explained how phone owners - like car owners - "bond" with their devices, allowing it to "become an external representation of self." However, as we all know, Apple's OS "jails" your experience inside apps. As Apple famously says, "there's an app for that:" their belief is that anything you could want to do with a mobile device can and should be done with an app. Jay explained to his audience why this is not so.

    Some of the most useful added functionality that is available to rooted Android devices and jailbroken iPhones, Jay observed, does not come from apps but from tweaks: extensions like custom launchers, dialers, and widgets. In a post on Hacker News, Jay aired his frustration with the argument that Apple should just open up the App Store. "In a future where Apple did exactly what you are asking them to do," Jay wrote, "almost nothing will have changed: people will still need to jailbreak their phones and developers will still be writing and distributing all of this cool software using Cydia."

    According to saurik, rather than pushing Apple to open up the Store, we should be pushing to get them to open up their device, and to keep Macs open. "Until users are able to install whatever software they wish on the hardware that they own," he writes, "we will not truly have won back any of our freedom."
    Last edited by Paul Daniel Ash; 11-09-2010 at 11:39 AM.

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    Oh come on, this video is over 2 weeks old already. I know it's a slow news day and all, but seriously...

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    man i'm happy i got the galaxy tab unlock with full cell capability,i dont have to deal with apple and their bull anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    Oh come on, this video is over 2 weeks old already. I know it's a slow news day and all, but seriously...
    More like slow news week...
    This message was K1NG approved.

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    Techie people just don't seem to get it.

    The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    Techie people just don't seem to get it.

    The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.
    What the non-techie people don't seem to get is that it's not about preventing the end users from compromising the OS, it's about Apple locking the end users into a platform and posting itself as the gatekeeper to that platform. As gatekeeper, Apple makes a fortune from apps sold in the app store.

    There are plenty of ways of ensuring that non-techie end users "cannot compromise the OS" while still maintaining openness that techie users would enjoy. Unfortunately, Apple will NEVER willingly relinquish control of the gate.

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    There are plenty of ways of ensuring that non-techie end users "cannot compromise the OS" while still maintaining openness that techie users would enjoy. Unfortunately, Apple will NEVER willingly relinquish control of the gate.[/QUOTE]

    well said my brother lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    What the non-techie people don't seem to get is that it's not about preventing the end users from compromising the OS, it's about Apple locking the end users into a platform and posting itself as the gatekeeper to that platform. As gatekeeper, Apple makes a fortune from apps sold in the app store.

    There are plenty of ways of ensuring that non-techie end users "cannot compromise the OS" while still maintaining openness that techie users would enjoy. Unfortunately, Apple will NEVER willingly relinquish control of the gate.
    Nobody is forcing anyone to buy apps off the app store. Don't forget that less than 3 years ago, there was no app store at all.

    The gated approach is favorable because Apple, as the gatekeeper, ensures the good ones are let in, and the shady ones stay out. The recent controversies over malicious apps in the Android market only serves to verify that approach.

    Furthermore, when buying apps, I would trust Apple over an independent developer any day to handle my financial information.


    I'm not saying that Saurik's point isn't valid. Of course, it is wonderful to have an open playground where anyone can do anything at their free will. But Apple's model is different, and it isn't going to do any good, nor is it terribly moral to demand them to switch to your own perception.

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    Correct me if i am wrong but this so called "secure" OS that you speak of has exploits used by iPhone hackers to inject jailbreak code could also be used to inject malicious code hints the reason for their security updates every time a jailbreak is released right? So if the right person knew what they were doing and wanted to could use the Unjailbroken code say via WEBSITE like jailbreakme.com to install malicious things on your device.

    Sorry that may have been off track a bit but the fact that you said because its "closed" meaning more secure. i think that is an incorrect statement. But what do i know i am no hacker. I just love jailbreaking my iDevices and believe its the only way to own one, and without it, i dont think i would own one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vantheman169 View Post
    Correct me if i am wrong but this so called "secure" OS that you speak of has exploits used by iPhone hackers to inject jailbreak code could also be used to inject malicious code hints the reason for their security updates every time a jailbreak is released right? So if the right person knew what they were doing and wanted to could use the Unjailbroken code say via WEBSITE like jailbreakme.com to install malicious things on your device.

    Sorry that may have been off track a bit but the fact that you said because its "closed" meaning more secure. i think that is an incorrect statement. But what do i know i am no hacker. I just love jailbreaking my iDevices and believe its the only way to own one, and without it, i dont think i would own one.
    Yes. Of course, nothing is perfect. All systems have exploits. The difference being that with iOS, so many people are looking for them that naturally, they show up more often.

    And with that, it is also why Apple closes these holes, not to spite jailbreakers, but because it would be irresponsible to leave it open. The PDF exploit (and the publicity surrounding it) means that it would be horribly easy to direct an unsuspecting user to a rigged website, which then infiltrates the OS.

    The closed system is inherently more secure, not just to protect against malicious code (and since the iPhone is the most popular smartphone in the world, is a very opportune thing), but also bugged software. Everyone knows all too well that when updates come, tweaks and modifications in Cydia more often that not can leave you with a nonfunctioning device (It's also why developers on the App Store are restricted to public API's).

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    where to get such a shirt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    Nobody is forcing anyone to buy apps off the app store. Don't forget that less than 3 years ago, there was no app store at all.
    You know, I'm getting so tired of the "nobody is forcing you blah blah" crap. ********. ********. APPLE IS FORCING YOU TO GET APPS ONLY FROM THE APP STORE. Your statement would only be true if there was a way of installing apps without using an Apple-condemned method of doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    The gated approach is favorable because Apple, as the gatekeeper, ensures the good ones are let in, and the shady ones stay out. The recent controversies over malicious apps in the Android market only serves to verify that approach.
    There are plenty of shady developers selling apps on Apple's app store.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    Furthermore, when buying apps, I would trust Apple over an independent developer any day to handle my financial information.
    I don't trust Apple with my financial information any more or less than any other entity. If I truly wanted to keep that info private, I'd stop using it, period. If you think you can keep your financial information private while supplying it to anyone over any electronic means, you're sadly mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    I'm not saying that Saurik's point isn't valid. Of course, it is wonderful to have an open playground where anyone can do anything at their free will. But Apple's model is different, and it isn't going to do any good, nor is it terribly moral to demand them to switch to your own perception.
    [sarcasm]You're right. We shouldn't expect a company that makes millions off us to take our opinions into consideration. That's just crazy talk![/sarcasm]

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    The closed system is inherently more secure, not just to protect against malicious code (and since the iPhone is the most popular smartphone in the world, is a very opportune thing), but also bugged software. Everyone knows all too well that when updates come, tweaks and modifications in Cydia more often that not can leave you with a nonfunctioning device (It's also why developers on the App Store are restricted to public API's).
    The closed system is NOT inherently more secure, it's just harder to identify security holes because Apple doesn't let you see the source. Security holes are most certainly there, you're just not allowed to discover them. To say that a closed system is more secure is straight up asinine.
    Last edited by Rokesomesmeefer; 11-09-2010 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    You know, I'm getting so tired of the "nobody is forcing you blah blah" crap. ********. ********. APPLE IS FORCING YOU TO GET APPS ONLY FROM THE APP STORE. Your statement would only be true if there was a way of installing apps without using an Apple-condemned method of doing so.



    There are plenty of shady developers selling apps on Apple's app store.



    I don't trust Apple with my financial information any more or less than any other entity. If I truly wanted to keep that info private, I'd stop using it, period. If you think you can keep your financial information private while supplying it to anyone over any electronic means, you're sadly mistaken.



    [sarcasm]You're right. We shouldn't expect a company that makes millions off us to take our opinions into consideration. That's just crazy talk![/sarcasm]



    The closed system is NOT inherently more secure, it's just harder to identify security holes because Apple doesn't let you see the source. Security holes are most certainly there, you're just not allowed to discover them. To say that a closed system is more secure is straight up asinine.
    Thank you! Well put

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    These are all well thought out comments (well most of them anyway) But just remember that at the end of the day, it's your device and you should be able to do with it what you want...

    In 2007 when the first iPhone was released there wasn't a lot you could do with it, that's when "hackers" thought it would be a great idea to be able to install games and tweaks on it. A year later we got the app store. In 2008 we finally got 3G on our iPhones and now we wanted MMS and the "hackers" did that too and a lot more the next thing you know we have an iPhone 3GS, now we have the speed to do even more.

    2010 iPhone 4, iOS 4 and it has all the things most of us have had sence iOS 3. I think it funny how Apple comes up with all this stuff AFTER the jailbreak community and the "hackers" have already done it....

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    Man jay is one smart cookie he really has a understanding and speaks the words of this community very well
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
    I think it funny how Apple comes up with all this stuff AFTER the jailbreak community and the "hackers" have already done it....
    It makes me sad to think where the iPhone might be today had it not been for jailbreaking. Hell, we'd probably still be waiting for MMS, let alone all the other nice features that jailbreaking has forced Apple's hand on.

    I never bothered with the first iPhone or the 3g because of the limitations and the pain that was jailbreaking at the time. Had it not been for jailbreaking (and made easy), I would never have jumped in when the 3GS was released, and I would certainly not own an iPhone 4 now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    Oh come on, this video is over 2 weeks old already. I know it's a slow news day and all, but seriously...
    Go away, dude. This is the first I've heard this news. Not all of us discover news as soon as it's made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
    These are all well thought out comments (well most of them anyway) But just remember that at the end of the day, it's your device and you should be able to do with it what you want...

    In 2007 when the first iPhone was released there wasn't a lot you could do with it, that's when "hackers" thought it would be a great idea to be able to install games and tweaks on it. A year later we got the app store. In 2008 we finally got 3G on our iPhones and now we wanted MMS and the "hackers" did that too and a lot more the next thing you know we have an iPhone 3GS, now we have the speed to do even more.

    2010 iPhone 4, iOS 4 and it has all the things most of us have had sence iOS 3. I think it funny how Apple comes up with all this stuff AFTER the jailbreak community and the "hackers" have already done it....
    i agree. no doubt the workers at apple are smart, but they are better at hardware than software. its the cydia developers that come up with great ideas before apple. then, when there is a software update with new features, such as ios 4.0, steve jobs will stand up there and all he will say is 'this is a breakthrough' or something like that, when it has already been done PUBLICLY by hackers. for example, MMS was created on cydia first, video recording was done on the 1st generation 2g iPhone (correct me if im wrong) and it wasnt developed by apple until almost 2 generations later. folders was in OS 2.0 and homescreen wallpaper was developed in OS 1.1. Apple did a good job at creating these apps built into the OS and did a better job with security, except for folders, which were faster and hold more on Categories. Jobs just needs to admit that half his ideas came from the Cydia and Jailbreaking community

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    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    Techie people just don't seem to get it.

    The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.
    I'm with you on that one. As soon as OS and iPhones are unlocked to all and sundry all sorts of bugs and glitches will get in. Why can't some people just be happy to let those people whose job it is deal with things and the rest of us to enjoy using them? I'm fed up with people spoiling things for the majority just because they think they're right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    You know, I'm getting so tired of the "nobody is forcing you blah blah" crap. ********. ********. APPLE IS FORCING YOU TO GET APPS ONLY FROM THE APP STORE. Your statement would only be true if there was a way of installing apps without using an Apple-condemned method of doing so.



    There are plenty of shady developers selling apps on Apple's app store.



    I don't trust Apple with my financial information any more or less than any other entity. If I truly wanted to keep that info private, I'd stop using it, period. If you think you can keep your financial information private while supplying it to anyone over any electronic means, you're sadly mistaken.



    [sarcasm]You're right. We shouldn't expect a company that makes millions off us to take our opinions into consideration. That's just crazy talk![/sarcasm]



    The closed system is NOT inherently more secure, it's just harder to identify security holes because Apple doesn't let you see the source. Security holes are most certainly there, you're just not allowed to discover them. To say that a closed system is more secure is straight up asinine.
    Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy apps. You can use an iPhone without buying anything. Everyone pre-2.0 did. Hell, you can get all free apps too. Don't forget HTML web apps were the norm before the app store too. The only reason you would not want to use the App Store is if you wanted to circumvent its policies.

    Yes there maybe shady developers, but Apple makes sure they can't do anything to harm you. That's the whole reasoning behind the review process.

    Now this is the part where you're starting to get absurd. I'd trust Apple with my credit card information because Apple is a large company, and holds itself liable for it. Who would you rather provide access to? A company that actually is in the public eye and is subject to strict regulation, or an individual who can easily take it and run? It's not a subjective question, It's damn common sense.

    Apple doesn't care much for your opinion because unlike you, Apple actually has marketing experts who know the most profitable way to sell their product. Unless you're suggesting that you can create and sell a product better than they can, your arguments pretty much fall flat.

    Also, an open system is definitely not more secure than a closed one. Obviously you've been breathing the spew open source zealots pour out because it just couldn't be farther from the truth. Apple is the only one working with the code, why should they have to reveal it to the whole world? More eyes on the code means greater chances of it being circumvented.

    Even Android can hardly be called open source because the only people allowed to touch it are Google developers.


    Of course, if Apple thought it would make sense to open up iOS, they probably would have already done so. But even though they haven't, you don't have the right to demand it, because Apple has never promised or advertised anything of the sort that would require it. Obviously when you bought an iOS device, you were fully aware of this fact.

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