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11-10-2010, 10:47 AM #41
Lol because I like that word. Would love to use it in words with friends
11-10-2010, 12:41 PM #42responses from saurik
However, if you don't want to buy it, then "don't buy it": there exists a very small and limited quantity of food that isn't made with it, you might be able to find it and once you do you can always get a better job to afford it.
Unfortunately, many people can't find it and don't understand the issue: the fact that it is a poison is really subtle and in the name of economy of scale and cost issues even people who /know/ it is poison are still buying.
I'm sorry, but this is not an effective usage of the world's resources. Instead, in California we put together a ban on this stuff which, in two stages, is going into effect this year and last. Now normal people can actually find healthier food.
I, and many other people, believe the same issues hold true for freedom of devices. People think this is all about some highly technical thing, but it isn't: the people who jailbreak aren't technical. These are normal users who like spinning icons.
But it is so much more than that: if you've ever bought some low-quality "made in taiwan" off-brand part for a computer, you are jailbreaking it from Apple's perspective. All hardware plugged into an iPhone goes through even a tougher filter than the software.
Now, I hate to break it to you: but that means that most people in the world benefit from and are even used to freedom in their devices. You can buy after-market modifications for all kinds of things, and computers have been at the forefront.
Companies like Apple/Motorola/etc. are working towards changing that, and in the world of cell phones and game consoles they have managed to carve out a niche that they are now working on bringing to larger and larger devices.
This is not something we as the people should tolerate: we need to understand what this means for /normal users/--people who don't understand the issues--and help protect their god given right to cheap off branded crap. ;P
Thankfully, the Library of Congress this year agreed that Apple is doing just that by having a closed software ecosystem on their devices, and granted jailbreakers a market exemption under the DMCA.
Seriously: the idea that this closed ecosystem is good for users is an idea I get told constantly from developers, and is not something I hear from real users on the street. Users are the kind of people who buy low quality cases for their phones that actually /cause scratches/ on their phone because it had a picture of a bunny on it.
Sometimes the reasons are more utilitarian: my mother installed some weird clock on her PC that she found that floats above everything else on her system and is gaudy as hell. Why? Because she wanted a second hand on an analog-style clock because she a) is used to that format and b) wants to buy things "at the last second" on Ebay.
That clock is the kind of thing that technology purists go "omg, that is ludicrous" to: Apple is never going to let a developer float a stupid ugly clock on their pristine iDevice. That could lead to people installing even more ludicrous things on their systems, like screensavers with pictures of toasters that really just damages your monitor.
That's the best part of these arguments: the things that I feel people like to do and that I feel people have the /right/ to do--and the things I think people should not be judged for wanting to do--are not things that I do. I don't normally have a theme on my iPhone, and I have a small handful of substrate extensions installed: but I understand the mentality of the users who do.
"Security" is awesome, but it is something that you should be able to choose your desired level of. On your laptop, right now, you don't have any of this ludicrous security, and yet somehow you are fine. This is because you can plug all kinds of awesome things into it, and install any software you want.
If laptop computers were setup like these phones are, the world would be drastically different. Instead of going to the store and buying some crazy sheetfed scanner that came with some crazy driver and software from the stone age that let you manage your documents, you know what you'd be able to do?
I'll tell you: not buy a sheetfed scanner, as the idea never got enough traction for a large-scale company to write software for it that Apple approved of, and the device drivers weren't allowed in the Mac App Store which became the only way to install software on 70% of computers in 2013 when Apple deprecated normal installation.
And yes, I realize you may never have bought a sheetfed scanner, but that's the kind of random thing that non-techie people who have a job to do often buys for their computer, and I'm pretty certain if you told them that "that's insecure" they wouldn't care: that job still has to get done, and its not like their computer is particularly important to them because they are NOT a techie.
Last edited by saurik; 11-10-2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
11-10-2010, 02:06 PM #43
Thank you Saurik. You are in the forefront of all of this and what I know about the scene wouldn't fill a thimble. However, don't like don't buy still holds up. We have to eat and drink. I have a yoohoo in my fridge next to my beer. I could've added some pure cocoa powder to my soy or skim milk but heck that would take effort so I grabbed the yoohoo. Yummy. Well of course in this age noone could "live" without a smartphone either, so you just have to buy one. If you knew that the laptop limited what software you could run then you wouldn't buy it. You know apple makes a device that limits what software you run, their choice, your choice to buy it. If you don't I promise you will live. If you dint like the product which is the sum of the hardware and the software, then dont buy it OR jb it set up a store and make alot of $. Take that $ and make your own product that is morally and ethically acceptable to you. If many agree then they will buy your open product vs the closed product. If it is worthy.
11-10-2010, 03:07 PM #44
Wow your views are really blurry on this whole subject. Before i ever jailbroke my iDevice my ipod touch 2g used to crash all the time. Open any app and it would crash..I dont have any problems with my iphone or any idevice for that matter. I am not even gonna sit here and type a whole god damn book about my opinions like you just did above. and take the CAPS LOCK off we can read it just fine.
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11-10-2010, 03:49 PM #45
Apple's market strategy is very uncompromising : - Always keep them wanting more ... by dangling hopes of including basic functionalities omitted in earlier releases.
In all of its efforts against JB'ing, Apple would primarily appear to be protecting its reputation for flawless (read : stable) product functionality.
Of course, for them, it also serves the secondary purpose of preventing Appstore product piracy.
Locking down the OS to protect that functionality, necessarily keeps out everything developed for JB'ers ... which as you suggest, is anti-competitive WRT the JB ecosystem.
But given that the primary goal of locking down the OS is to maintain its functional stability, it would seem a little disingenuous to accuse them of being anti-competitive in the same way that MS have been.
And as much as I do and will forever continue to love everything you (and the JB-community) do, I still can't blame Apple for protecting this core aspect of its product image and consumer appeal.
To me, this puts what might otherwise just look like commercial greed into more sympathetic perspective.
11-10-2010, 07:51 PM #46
And as for the limitations and the pain of jailbreaking the first iphone what eaxactly are you talking about? Maybe with the 3g phones since i have never dealt with them. But you could buy the first iphone from the apple store without buying At&t service. Also jailbreaking and unlocking it was no different than it is now. If anything it was easier with the original iphone since you could buy one from the apple store without signing up for At&t service.
11-10-2010, 11:29 PM #47
I either hadn't realized, or had forgotten just how crazy you are.
Its all good.
As a dev/admin the biggest lurking problem I see with "users" and their freedoms is that most don't seem to value it all that much. When they have the freedom to do what they want, they tend to take it for granted. When they don't have sufficient freedoms to do what they want, they're often not sure what's missing.
Freedom can be scary, and part of why the Apple business model "works" is the soothing and calming voice of Steve Jobs telling them that the walled garden really is an Eden.
To use your sheetfeed scanner metaphor- if the poor, disheveled office user who needs to get one so he can do his job had to checkout a SCM revision and find a way to build it for his PC (whatever OS/revision it might be) - without a huge amount of training they'd never get there. Single-click driver install is what users want, what users need. Freedom for developers to: write the code, package it up neatly, test it exhaustively, distribute it cleanly efficiently, is not something that end-users appreciate as a necessary mortar in the brick wall of their "computer".
Being pleasantly distracted by shiny, flashy things is a necessary part of most people's computing experiences. Being unpleasantly distracted by "it doesn't do what I want it to do" is another part. Enhancing and strengthening the protections on software/hardware freedoms does help mitigate the problem, but "software having screws" isn't much good if the users don't have good tools for unscrewing. The missing tools aren't code- its confidence, comfort and patience for learning the gory innards of things they may not have had much practice goggling at.
As an admin I'm wary of offering or promising "freedom"- by itself, it doesn't make people happier. Investing in human development and giving them a context for wanting freedom.... well, it works but its exhausting.
And transmogrified fats won't kill you tomorrow.
The CA legislature is abridging my freedom to consume things that may kill me eventually. Banning refined oils reduces customer choice in the market, but....
as in the IOS Garden of Eden, we exchange the freedom to do some self-harmful behaviors for the safety and security of eating more wholesome foods.
I can't think of any good reason to eat steam-refined oils, but I suppose there might be one. I can think of a few good reasons to eat-the-damn-apple-grab-eve-and-GTFO-the-garden; but the advantages of both: banning dangerous food additives and dangerous software additives are real and palpable. Luring people away from the Garden remains a work very-much-in-progress.
Last edited by raduga; 11-10-2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
11-11-2010, 12:03 AM #48
11-11-2010, 09:43 PM #49