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Thread: "Software Should Have Screws:" saurik's TED Talk

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Lol because I like that word. Would love to use it in words with friends
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    Lol because I like that word. Would love to use it in words with friends

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    Default responses from saurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    Oh come on, this video is over 2 weeks old already. I know it's a slow news day and all, but seriously...
    (While the video went up two weeks ago, pretty much no one knew about it until I made a post on Hacker News and referred to it. I'd even argue it didn't go up until yesterday from the perspective of the jailbreak community.)

    Quote Originally Posted by floppy_joe View Post
    Wow, like I said. Don't like how they do it then don't buy it. You did, you don't like so you won't (apple knows you will) buy again. Period.
    This argument comes up all the time, but it doesn't make sense. Pretty much all baked goods (hell, almost everything: even the drink Yoohoo! contains it) are made with "partially hydrogenated oil": this stuff is poison, it really is.

    However, if you don't want to buy it, then "don't buy it": there exists a very small and limited quantity of food that isn't made with it, you might be able to find it and once you do you can always get a better job to afford it.

    Unfortunately, many people can't find it and don't understand the issue: the fact that it is a poison is really subtle and in the name of economy of scale and cost issues even people who /know/ it is poison are still buying.

    I'm sorry, but this is not an effective usage of the world's resources. Instead, in California we put together a ban on this stuff which, in two stages, is going into effect this year and last. Now normal people can actually find healthier food.

    I, and many other people, believe the same issues hold true for freedom of devices. People think this is all about some highly technical thing, but it isn't: the people who jailbreak aren't technical. These are normal users who like spinning icons.

    But it is so much more than that: if you've ever bought some low-quality "made in taiwan" off-brand part for a computer, you are jailbreaking it from Apple's perspective. All hardware plugged into an iPhone goes through even a tougher filter than the software.

    Now, I hate to break it to you: but that means that most people in the world benefit from and are even used to freedom in their devices. You can buy after-market modifications for all kinds of things, and computers have been at the forefront.

    Companies like Apple/Motorola/etc. are working towards changing that, and in the world of cell phones and game consoles they have managed to carve out a niche that they are now working on bringing to larger and larger devices.

    This is not something we as the people should tolerate: we need to understand what this means for /normal users/--people who don't understand the issues--and help protect their god given right to cheap off branded crap. ;P

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhoneThereforeIAm View Post
    You can't blame a company with a product like the iPhone for wanting to protect its interests.
    And in fairness to them, they've always cultured a reputation for flawless functionality across their whole product range - long before the iPhone was ever mooted.
    At the end of the day, locking things down has kept Apple profits stratospheric - which allows them to stay ahead of the competition by being at the front of the development curve ... which means a better iPhone for the consumer.
    This doesn't make sense, as we know that at least 10% of the revenues on their hardware comes from people who disagree with them about that "flawless functionality" being enough to follow inane constantly-changing instructions from difficult-to-find websites that void their warranty.

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhoneThereforeIAm View Post
    And you can never knock a company that creates demand, because that creates wealth and boosts the economy.
    While I'm not certain the principal behind this point is something that even a clear majority of people in the world agrees with, if we assume that premise we can then easily knock a company for holding back a market and limiting demand.

    Thankfully, the Library of Congress this year agreed that Apple is doing just that by having a closed software ecosystem on their devices, and granted jailbreakers a market exemption under the DMCA.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    Techie people just don't seem to get it.

    The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.
    Actually, I find it to be the exact opposite: techies don't get it because they think "billions of apps" and "intuitive design" are somehow the most important thing to come to a mobile device. Real users make purchases because of silly things like "it did this cool flippy thing in my hand" or "its red: that's my favorite color".

    Seriously: the idea that this closed ecosystem is good for users is an idea I get told constantly from developers, and is not something I hear from real users on the street. Users are the kind of people who buy low quality cases for their phones that actually /cause scratches/ on their phone because it had a picture of a bunny on it.

    Sometimes the reasons are more utilitarian: my mother installed some weird clock on her PC that she found that floats above everything else on her system and is gaudy as hell. Why? Because she wanted a second hand on an analog-style clock because she a) is used to that format and b) wants to buy things "at the last second" on Ebay.

    That clock is the kind of thing that technology purists go "omg, that is ludicrous" to: Apple is never going to let a developer float a stupid ugly clock on their pristine iDevice. That could lead to people installing even more ludicrous things on their systems, like screensavers with pictures of toasters that really just damages your monitor.

    That's the best part of these arguments: the things that I feel people like to do and that I feel people have the /right/ to do--and the things I think people should not be judged for wanting to do--are not things that I do. I don't normally have a theme on my iPhone, and I have a small handful of substrate extensions installed: but I understand the mentality of the users who do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
    The closed system is inherently more secure, not just to protect against malicious code (and since the iPhone is the most popular smartphone in the world, is a very opportune thing), but also bugged software. Everyone knows all too well that when updates come, tweaks and modifications in Cydia more often that not can leave you with a nonfunctioning device (It's also why developers on the App Store are restricted to public API's).
    You know what would be really secure? Not letting me install software on my phone at all. Maybe even not letting me have a phone, or requiring the person on the other end of my phone calls to go through a backscatter Xray machine or experience a "full pat down" before talking to them.

    "Security" is awesome, but it is something that you should be able to choose your desired level of. On your laptop, right now, you don't have any of this ludicrous security, and yet somehow you are fine. This is because you can plug all kinds of awesome things into it, and install any software you want.

    If laptop computers were setup like these phones are, the world would be drastically different. Instead of going to the store and buying some crazy sheetfed scanner that came with some crazy driver and software from the stone age that let you manage your documents, you know what you'd be able to do?

    I'll tell you: not buy a sheetfed scanner, as the idea never got enough traction for a large-scale company to write software for it that Apple approved of, and the device drivers weren't allowed in the Mac App Store which became the only way to install software on 70% of computers in 2013 when Apple deprecated normal installation.

    And yes, I realize you may never have bought a sheetfed scanner, but that's the kind of random thing that non-techie people who have a job to do often buys for their computer, and I'm pretty certain if you told them that "that's insecure" they wouldn't care: that job still has to get done, and its not like their computer is particularly important to them because they are NOT a techie.
    Last edited by saurik; 11-10-2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Thank you Saurik. You are in the forefront of all of this and what I know about the scene wouldn't fill a thimble. However, don't like don't buy still holds up. We have to eat and drink. I have a yoohoo in my fridge next to my beer. I could've added some pure cocoa powder to my soy or skim milk but heck that would take effort so I grabbed the yoohoo. Yummy. Well of course in this age noone could "live" without a smartphone either, so you just have to buy one. If you knew that the laptop limited what software you could run then you wouldn't buy it. You know apple makes a device that limits what software you run, their choice, your choice to buy it. If you don't I promise you will live. If you dint like the product which is the sum of the hardware and the software, then dont buy it OR jb it set up a store and make alot of $. Take that $ and make your own product that is morally and ethically acceptable to you. If many agree then they will buy your open product vs the closed product. If it is worthy.

    Henry Rearden

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    My iPhone is a Part of Me vantheman169's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by game.over View Post
    mohaas05: Techie people just don't seem to get it.

    The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.



    YOU ARE 100% CORRECT mohaas05 AND THATS EXACTLY WHY ITS CLOSED AND LET IT STAY CLOSED FOR EVER UNTIL THESE THIRD PARTY DEVELOPERS DO THINGS CORRECTLY...


    1.) IPHONE 3GS 32GB (JAILED) = EVERYTHING FAST AND STABLE AND SECURE.

    2.) IPHONE 3GS (JAILBROKEN) = EVERYTHING SLOW AS HELL, UNSTABLE AND DEFINITELY NOT SECURE ESPECIALLY WITH THAT OPEN SSH THING, REMEMBER THAT HACKER THAT HACKED INSIDE ALOT OF T MOBILE USERES WITH THAT SSH STUFF? SURE YOU CAN CHANGE THE PASSWORD BUT NOT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.


    EXAMPLE ...

    APPLE STORE = FAST, NO RELOADS, NO CRASHES

    CYDIA = RELOADS THAT TAKE FOREVER,CRASHES,SLOW ETC.

    I LOVE CYDIA AND I DONT KNOW WHAT I WILL DO WITH OUT IT...I LOVE THE FACT THAT JAILBROKEN I AM FREE AND CAN TWEAK ANYTHING BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT BRINGS A PRICE AND IS AN UNSTABLE OS.

    SO IN CONCLUSION I AGREE WITH mohaas05 ..

    WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT IF YOU GONNA DO SOMTHING PLEASE DO IT RIGHT...IF YOU GONNA HACK THE IPHONE AND CREATE CYDIA, IF YOU GONNA CREATE MULTIFLOW, IF YOU GONNA CREATE (WINTERBOARD) ETC.. DONT RELEASE IT UNTIL YOU KNOW ITS STABLE AND DO NOT SUCK ALL YOUR MEMORY UP...SURE IM GONNA DOWNLOAD IT...OFCOURSE WE GET BORED OF THE SAME THING BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE ARE SAD CUZ WE SEE ITS NOT HIGH QUALITY..JAILED = blu-ray 1920x1080p AND JAILBROKEN = DVD 640x480 ..u get it? AND LIKE I SAID I LOVE CYDIA I LOVE MULTIFLOW I LOVE WINTERBOARD AND I CANT BE WITH OUT IT BUT DAM THEY BE MESSING MY OS UP...100MB OF FREE RAM? ARE YOU SERIOUS? ON A 3GS ? REALLY? AND ALL APPS CLOSED? WTF? BATTERY DRAINS WITH THAT ULTRASN0W WICH I LOVE TOO BUT DAMM....COME ON MAN...DO YOU PEOPLE FEEL ME? DO YALL AGREE OR YOU DONT AGREE? NO WONDER APPLE IS A CLOSED SOURCE...AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE (CLOSED= STABLE,SECURE,FAST) AND OPENED = (ALL MESSED UP)

    Wow your views are really blurry on this whole subject. Before i ever jailbroke my iDevice my ipod touch 2g used to crash all the time. Open any app and it would crash..I dont have any problems with my iphone or any idevice for that matter. I am not even gonna sit here and type a whole god damn book about my opinions like you just did above. and take the CAPS LOCK off we can read it just fine.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to vantheman169 For This Useful Post:

    raduga (11-10-2010)

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iPhoneThereforeIAm
    You can't blame a company with a product like the iPhone for wanting to protect its interests.
    And in fairness to them, they've always cultured a reputation for flawless functionality across their whole product range - long before the iPhone was ever mooted.
    At the end of the day, locking things down has kept Apple profits stratospheric - which allows them to stay ahead of the competition by being at the front of the development curve ... which means a better iPhone for the consumer.
    This doesn't make sense, as we know that at least 10% of the revenues on their hardware comes from people who disagree with them about that "flawless functionality" being enough to follow inane constantly-changing instructions from difficult-to-find websites that void their warranty.
    I said 'flawless', not 'maxed out' functionality.
    Apple's market strategy is very uncompromising : - Always keep them wanting more ... by dangling hopes of including basic functionalities omitted in earlier releases.


    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iPhoneThereforeIAm

    And you can never knock a company that creates demand, because that creates wealth and boosts the economy.
    While I'm not certain the principal behind this point is something that even a clear majority of people in the world agrees with, if we assume that premise we can then easily knock a company for holding back a market and limiting demand.

    Thankfully, the Library of Congress this year agreed that Apple is doing just that by having a closed software ecosystem on their devices, and granted jailbreakers a market exemption under the DMCA.
    I'm in the UK, but from what I do know of that case, it was in essence, a ruling on warranty-nullification by JB'ing - and not anti-competitive business practice as per MS Windows/IE. After all, Apple never sought to restrict your choice of software to apps developed exclusively by them ... which would be shooting themselves in the Appstore.

    In all of its efforts against JB'ing, Apple would primarily appear to be protecting its reputation for flawless (read : stable) product functionality.
    Of course, for them, it also serves the secondary purpose of preventing Appstore product piracy.
    Locking down the OS to protect that functionality, necessarily keeps out everything developed for JB'ers ... which as you suggest, is anti-competitive WRT the JB ecosystem.
    But given that the primary goal of locking down the OS is to maintain its functional stability, it would seem a little disingenuous to accuse them of being anti-competitive in the same way that MS have been.

    And as much as I do and will forever continue to love everything you (and the JB-community) do, I still can't blame Apple for protecting this core aspect of its product image and consumer appeal.
    To me, this puts what might otherwise just look like commercial greed into more sympathetic perspective.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
    It makes me sad to think where the iPhone might be today had it not been for jailbreaking. Hell, we'd probably still be waiting for MMS, let alone all the other nice features that jailbreaking has forced Apple's hand on.

    I never bothered with the first iPhone or the 3g because of the limitations and the pain that was jailbreaking at the time. Had it not been for jailbreaking (and made easy), I would never have jumped in when the 3GS was released, and I would certainly not own an iPhone 4 now.
    There is no way of saying that jailbreaking forced Apple to set up the App store or MMS or allowing us to text in landscape mode or make them do anything else they have done with the phone.

    And as for the limitations and the pain of jailbreaking the first iphone what eaxactly are you talking about? Maybe with the 3g phones since i have never dealt with them. But you could buy the first iphone from the apple store without buying At&t service. Also jailbreaking and unlocking it was no different than it is now. If anything it was easier with the original iphone since you could buy one from the apple store without signing up for At&t service.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by floppy_joe View Post
    Lol because I like that word. Would love to use it in words with friends
    Which?

    Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
    wall of text

    Thanks, Saurik.

    I either hadn't realized, or had forgotten just how crazy you are.
    Its all good.

    As a dev/admin the biggest lurking problem I see with "users" and their freedoms is that most don't seem to value it all that much. When they have the freedom to do what they want, they tend to take it for granted. When they don't have sufficient freedoms to do what they want, they're often not sure what's missing.

    Freedom can be scary, and part of why the Apple business model "works" is the soothing and calming voice of Steve Jobs telling them that the walled garden really is an Eden.

    To use your sheetfeed scanner metaphor- if the poor, disheveled office user who needs to get one so he can do his job had to checkout a SCM revision and find a way to build it for his PC (whatever OS/revision it might be) - without a huge amount of training they'd never get there. Single-click driver install is what users want, what users need. Freedom for developers to: write the code, package it up neatly, test it exhaustively, distribute it cleanly efficiently, is not something that end-users appreciate as a necessary mortar in the brick wall of their "computer".

    Being pleasantly distracted by shiny, flashy things is a necessary part of most people's computing experiences. Being unpleasantly distracted by "it doesn't do what I want it to do" is another part. Enhancing and strengthening the protections on software/hardware freedoms does help mitigate the problem, but "software having screws" isn't much good if the users don't have good tools for unscrewing. The missing tools aren't code- its confidence, comfort and patience for learning the gory innards of things they may not have had much practice goggling at.

    As an admin I'm wary of offering or promising "freedom"- by itself, it doesn't make people happier. Investing in human development and giving them a context for wanting freedom.... well, it works but its exhausting.

    And transmogrified fats won't kill you tomorrow.
    The CA legislature is abridging my freedom to consume things that may kill me eventually. Banning refined oils reduces customer choice in the market, but....
    as in the IOS Garden of Eden, we exchange the freedom to do some self-harmful behaviors for the safety and security of eating more wholesome foods.

    I can't think of any good reason to eat steam-refined oils, but I suppose there might be one. I can think of a few good reasons to eat-the-damn-apple-grab-eve-and-GTFO-the-garden; but the advantages of both: banning dangerous food additives and dangerous software additives are real and palpable. Luring people away from the Garden remains a work very-much-in-progress.

    kthx,
    raduga
    Last edited by raduga; 11-10-2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by raduga View Post
    Which?




    Thanks, Saurik.

    I either hadn't realized, or had forgotten just how crazy you are.
    Its all good.

    As a dev/admin the biggest lurking problem I see with "users" and their freedoms is that most don't seem to value it all that much. When they have the freedom to do what they want, they tend to take it for granted. When they don't have sufficient freedoms to do what they want, they're often not sure what's missing.

    Freedom can be scary, and part of why the Apple business model "works" is the soothing and calming voice of Steve Jobs telling them that the walled garden really is an Eden.

    To use your sheetfeed scanner metaphor- if the poor, disheveled office user who needs to get one so he can do his job had to checkout a SCM revision and find a way to build it for his PC (whatever OS/revision it might be) - without a huge amount of training they'd never get there. Single-click driver install is what users want, what users need. Freedom for developers to: write the code, package it up neatly, test it exhaustively, distribute it cleanly efficiently, is not something that end-users appreciate as a necessary mortar in the brick wall of their "computer".

    Being pleasantly distracted by shiny, flashy things is a necessary part of most people's computing experiences. Being unpleasantly distracted by "it doesn't do what I want it to do" is another part. Enhancing and strengthening the protections on software/hardware freedoms does help mitigate the problem, but "software having screws" isn't much good if the users don't have good tools for unscrewing. The missing tools aren't code- its confidence, comfort and patience for learning the gory innards of things they may not have had much practice goggling at.

    As an admin I'm wary of offering or promising "freedom"- by itself, it doesn't make people happier. Investing in human development and giving them a context for wanting freedom.... well, it works but its exhausting.

    And transmogrified fats won't kill you tomorrow.
    The CA legislature is abridging my freedom to consume things that may kill me eventually. Banning refined oils reduces customer choice in the market, but....
    as in the IOS Garden of Eden, we exchange the freedom to do some self-harmful behaviors for the safety and security of eating more wholesome foods.

    I can't think of any good reason to eat steam-refined oils, but I suppose there might be one. I can think of a few good reasons to eat-the-damn-apple-grab-eve-and-GTFO-the-garden; but the advantages of both: banning dangerous food additives and dangerous software additives are real and palpable. Luring people away from the Garden remains a work very-much-in-progress.

    kthx,
    raduga


    I'm sorry sir but that sounded very elitist and condescending. Mighty wise dev thinking you are above what you lump together as "users" who need direction. Only like shiny things. Get over yourself. Admin. That figures.
    Last edited by floppy_joe; 11-11-2010 at 09:24 AM.

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by floppy_joe View Post
    Get over yourself.
    no, u

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