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Thread: Installer 4 Preview - PICS

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Originally Posted by kapildevn15 nice pics o installer. loved those. i hope it's coming soon so i can pwn my iphone again to install the installer Why do you need
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapildevn15 View Post
    nice pics o installer. loved those. i hope it's coming soon so i can pwn my iphone again to install the installer
    Why do you need to pwn your iphone again??? This has been explained 10000x as unnecessary. Just read through the posts in this thread first.
    Last edited by imode; 07-27-2008 at 05:00 PM.

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    At lh99 (didn't want to quote, too long)

    Jesus man, you have a lot of anger towards a program on a phone. While I agree with you almost entirely, i think there's room for both in the iPhone community
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMSiphone View Post
    At lh99 (didn't want to quote, too long)

    Jesus man, you have a lot of anger towards a program on a phone. While I agree with you almost entirely, i think there's room for both in the iPhone community
    Hey, it was a rainy Sunday morning and I felt like explaining myself, what else can I say? I don't harbor any ill will towards the developers of Installer or its supporters, I'm just trying to express my opinion that Installer, while a great resource in its day, isn't necessary anymore. You're right, there is room for two packagers -- they coexisted in the 1.1.x era. I really don't want to see Cydia, a great project, fall through the cracks solely on the account of Installer's name recognition, though.
    Last edited by lh99; 07-27-2008 at 08:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinividiiphone View Post
    you're setting up a strawman argument.

    the facts are, installer is not open source. if the owners had a profit motive, if there were accidental or intentional vulnerabilities, or if a hole suddenly opened up and they disappeared, there could be huge ramifications. Not so with Cydia. The source code is available for peer review and improvement, if Saurik had ill intentions or could no longer support the project, it would live on through others.

    i'm not saying the installer folks aren't honorable, well intentioned people. i have no idea, but frankly, it's not something i need to worry about with Cydia.
    I'm not really concerned about it with Installer either. If there is such a competition between Installer/Cydia, why would Installer suddenly take a dive by doing any of the things you mentioned (the purposeful ones)? Doing so would be their death knell; you know it, I know it, and they know it.

    Being an election year, I liken all this talk to a smear campaign. Lots of "what ifs" being thrown about with nothing to base it on. Promote your own candidate; stop trying to find ways to put down the opponent or to instill fear into its supporters by handing out wild speculation.

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    i think installer did so well is because it was packaged with the old jailbreaking solutions. Now we will have a choice of both, the market will always decide.

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    i wish the installer devs and installer itself much success. i have nothing against them or their project. i'll likely be using it.

    that being said, i'd be interested in your technical arguments for the installer project, or at least some down-sides to the Cydia project.

    i've highlighted some of the reasons why i believe the Cydia project to be superior on licensing, transparency, and technical grounds.

    the least of my arguments rely on nullriver's "turning evil."

    Quote Originally Posted by zauriel View Post
    I'm not really concerned about it with Installer either. If there is such a competition between Installer/Cydia, why would Installer suddenly take a dive by doing any of the things you mentioned (the purposeful ones)? Doing so would be their death knell; you know it, I know it, and they know it.

    Being an election year, I liken all this talk to a smear campaign. Lots of "what ifs" being thrown about with nothing to base it on. Promote your own candidate; stop trying to find ways to put down the opponent or to instill fear into its supporters by handing out wild speculation.

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    I don't see why there's so much hate for either one of these applications. What are you guy's really argueing about... and most importantly, why? These arguments are getting really ridiculous as well.

    Everyone here should be thanking their lucky stars for putting out applications like these that make the iPhone 200x better... for FREE.

    This is, of course, aimed at the people that can't help but turn their nose up at anyone that doesn't agree with their opinions.

    Anyways, these are great applications and I can't wait for Installer to be released.
    Last edited by iPhoneMadness; 07-28-2008 at 01:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lh99 View Post
    I really do like how the Dev Team (and Saurik specifically) actually talk about what's going on, why they're doing it, what problems they're having, etc. This may not mean a lot to the casual user who doesn't understand how programming/hacking works, but it means a whole lot to me. I like knowing what I'm installing, rather than just blindly loading whatever binaries look interesting.
    Then this places you in the minority. I surely can't prove it, but I think it's common sense to think that the vast majority of jailbreakers know nothing of programming, code, binaries, etc. This is why we wait for others to do these things for us. If you know more and that's why you like Cydia, bully for you. I, not being involved in such matters, couldn't care less. Same goes for most of us jailbreaking our phones.

    Don't get me wrong, I like my fair share of "pretty" GUI's, such as OS X and Delicious Library (which is full of eye candy). But there's a place for fancy graphics, and there's a place for efficiency. An package manager should be functional first and attractive second.
    I've never had much of a problem with either usability or efficiency when dealing with Installer. It does what I want it to do, in an easy, simple format which meshes well with Apple's simplistic design.

    No point much beyond that, but right now Cydia has a lot of the features Installer should have, and Installer only has a couple of features Cydia should have (my opinion, of course). From the looks of it, they're basically rewriting Installer from the ground up to make all of the necessary improvements, so I don't see how past versions of Installer will predict in any way how Installer 4.0 will work. It'll probably be buggy. It might even be missing features you liked from Installer 3. I haven't used 4.0, so I don't know, but you can't expect it the experience to be exactly the same.
    Generally, upgrades to programs don't remove features; that defeats the purpose of an upgrade, which is to add new features and/or improve upon existing ones. And yes, it may be buggy on release. Many programs are ... they get tested as best they can but eventually must be released, and then updates made based on feedback of problems that are encountered. The Installer folks are mainly rewriting the behind-the-scenes stuff; the guts, so to speak ... and from the pics shown in this thread I really don't see that anything on the face of it has changed, save improved GUI and a new "Tasks" option.

    Just tell me, other than the apparent "brand loyalty" that Installer has because it was first, why? Can you give us a specific reason? Aside from being able to add sources (which has already been discussed enough for me), what does Installer bring to the table that Cydia doesn't? I haven't seen a single post that identifies a specific advantage. Stability does not count -- no one knows how stable the new Installer is going to be yet.
    How can you ask me -- or anyone -- to tell you a reason why based on the new Installer when no one has had a chance to use it? The only basis we have is the previous Installer incarnations, and therefore stability is most certainly a factor. But I'm not really interested in writing a detailed description of what gives Installer an advantage or not; I never claimed Installer was "better" than Cydia, or that I had a list of reasons why ... all I said was I prefer it and that you Cydia lovers should stop denigrating those of us that like Installer. And really, that's what it boils down to. Personal preference. I don't have to have a reason to want to use Installer over Cydia, nor do I have to explain my decisions to you or to anyone else. I've been using Installer since it debuted, I like it, it works for me in the way I want it to, and I will continue to use it as long as they keep providing it and improving upon it. Conversely, I have used Cydia for a few firmwares, and I don't find that I like using it as much as I like using Installer. And that, my friend, is the only reason I need.

    From my perspective, and I've been using both package managers since they first came out, most of the differences are cosmetic. Cydia has a much better "Changes" screen.
    Again, this is a matter of preference. I prefer the "Recent Packages" screen to check for new items.

    Since I haven't seen any logical arguments for Installer, I have to assume that most of its proponents want the apps it used to have.
    I'm not denying there are noobs that might think that Installer somehow will have access to more apps than Cydia does with this new firmware, but please, give most of us here the benefit of the doubt. I'm not an idiot, and I speak on behalf of all of us non-idiot jailbreakers who prefer Installer over Cydia -- for whatever reason.

    What would be great is if Installer just used the same repository format that Cydia does, rendering this whole discussion moot. They probably won't do it, but if they did, users could select between Cydia and Installer based on features, not application availability. I just really want to see everything in one place (OK, two places including the AppStore). This makes things easier for developers and users alike and if Nullriver/RipDev are truly dedicated to the community as you think they are, they would find a way to cooperate with Cydia.
    Why must they cooperate with Cydia? Installer, regardless of repository format, has been providing users with access to apps since the beginning, and suddenly because Cydia is open source, Installer should apologize and then mimic it? Again, pretentious. That's a "mine is better than yours, so yours should aspire to be like mine" attitude. I'm an Apple fanatic, owning at least five major products of theirs, but even I detest Apple owners who display such an attitude towards Windows users, and this is essentially the same situation. I wouldn't want the whole world to run only on Macs; in fact, while I like that Apple is gaining popularity, I quite enjoy that Mac users are still the minority by a wide margin.

    The world is big enough for Installer and Cydia both; if two package delivery apps in addition to the AppStore are too much for you, then simply don't use Installer unless you absolutely have to, just as I will with Cydia. But there's absolutely no justification for you or anyone else to call for Installer's demise.

    Quote Originally Posted by iPhoneMadness View Post
    I don't see why there's so much hate for either one of these applications. What are you guy's really argueing about... and most importantly, why? These arguments are getting really ridiculous as well.

    Everyone here should be thanking their lucky stars for putting out applications like these that make the iPhone 200x better... for FREE.

    This is, of course, aimed at the people that can't help but turn their nose up at anyone that doesn't agree with their opinions.

    Anyways, these are great applications and I can't wait for Installer to be released.
    I agree wholeheartedly. I don't hate Cydia at all, and I hope that those who like Cydia more than Installer continue to have that opportunity to choose it. I prefer Installer, and I would like in return the same ability to choose to use that instead of Cydia. What I can't tolerate are those who argue in favor of one being removed from the picture entirely, whether it be Installer or Cydia. That's when it starts getting a little Hitler-esque.

    I extend heartfelt thanks to both the Installer folks as well as the Cydia folks in producing programs that we all can use to download our fave apps.
    Last edited by zauriel; 07-28-2008 at 02:10 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Quote Originally Posted by lh99 View Post
    Yeah, I could have gone a bit lighter on the Nullriver (and now, apparently RipDev) criticism, but I don't really regret it. It's nice to see that RipDev is providing some information about the upcoming release, design decisions, progress, etc. What I never liked about Nullriver/Installer is how it just appeared from nowhere, with virtually no documentation, no project roadmap, etc. There's one crummy page on NullRiver's site about it that's very vague. Most of what we know about it is from people using/exploring it. This hasn't really changed much since those early days. The only reason Installer became so popular is that no one was able to (or found the time to) create a worthy competitor, until recently. And yes, I remember (and used in place of Installer) the short-lived PLX/Breezy/Shimmer project.

    I really do like how the Dev Team (and Saurik specifically) actually talk about what's going on, why they're doing it, what problems they're having, etc. This may not mean a lot to the casual user who doesn't understand how programming/hacking works, but it means a whole lot to me. I like knowing what I'm installing, rather than just blindly loading whatever binaries look interesting.

    I'm still upset with Nullriver for never following through with their promise to make Installer open-source. There are certain things that make sense to be closed-source, but an app like Installer does not. It's not like there's any really secret technology in use in Installer; there are plenty of open source apps that have similar navigation, features, etc (Cydia, for example). I can't think of a reason to keep it closed other than future plans to add AppStore-like purchasing features or monthly usage charges (either of which might explain RipDev's involvement). That's fine if they want to start incorporating a fees-based model, but I think most of us who want to buy apps will buy them through the AppStore, and most devs will want to sell there too due to the much larger audience. I've considered buying things like Kate and Intelliscreen before, but I value the Apple updates over these mods and don't want to end up having to choose between the next firmware update and a 3rd party hack I already paid for.

    Why does open-source matter? I guess it's more idealism on my part (and many others), but in a small development community (especially one at the mercy of Apple's whims at all times), sharing of information is crucial for developers to continue to improve their software and keep pace with firmware updates. It just makes for better software. If Installer were open-source, the unofficial iPhone developers could review and improve the code as they find issues working with it. Since Installer is a community app (it supports applications from hundreds of developers), doesn't it make sense for those developers to have input into the program that installs their apps? Right now, they can just email Nullriver/RipDev and hope that they have the time to work on something eventually. Cydia solves all of these problems. Even if it's not perfect yet, it'll get updated and improve faster than Installer simply because it's open-source (and now it's being heavily used in Installer's absence).



    Don't get me wrong, I like my fair share of "pretty" GUI's, such as OS X and Delicious Library (which is full of eye candy). But there's a place for fancy graphics, and there's a place for efficiency. An package manager should be functional first and attractive second. Also, don't confuse flashy graphics and reflections with usability. There are plenty of apps out there that look great, but clearly weren't designed to be easy to use. Apple's design process focuses on identifying why, how, and where someone will use a given product, then they figure out what features/functions are necessary and how to organize them to make them dead-simple and efficient to use. Compare any Apple product to the competition and you'll see the difference between a process that focuses on features and a process that focuses on the user experience. An of course it has to look beautiful, but not at the expense of performance or usability.

    For the record, Apple has made a few missteps along the way, such as the hockey puck mouse and the reflective dock in OS X Leopard, but they're pretty good as a whole.



    No point much beyond that, but right now Cydia has a lot of the features Installer should have, and Installer only has a couple of features Cydia should have (my opinion, of course). From the looks of it, they're basically rewriting Installer from the ground up to make all of the necessary improvements, so I don't see how past versions of Installer will predict in any way how Installer 4.0 will work. It'll probably be buggy. It might even be missing features you liked from Installer 3. I haven't used 4.0, so I don't know, but you can't expect it the experience to be exactly the same.



    Just tell me, other than the apparent "brand loyalty" that Installer has because it was first, why? Can you give us a specific reason? Aside from being able to add sources (which has already been discussed enough for me), what does Installer bring to the table that Cydia doesn't? I haven't seen a single post that identifies a specific advantage. Stability does not count -- no one knows how stable the new Installer is going to be yet.

    From my perspective, and I've been using both package managers since they first came out, most of the differences are cosmetic. Cydia has a much better "Changes" screen. Installer lets you add apps to a queue (which gets screwed up if something in the queue fails to install, but it's still nice). Other than that, what differences are there? The new Cydia icon is, in my opinion, as nice as Installer's. So unless you hate brown for some reason, what's so great about Installer?

    Since I haven't seen any logical arguments for Installer, I have to assume that most of its proponents want the apps it used to have.



    Granted, but if Cydia did start doing shady stuff, at least I could create my own branch of the code that didn't.



    What would be great is if Installer just used the same repository format that Cydia does, rendering this whole discussion moot. They probably won't do it, but if they did, users could select between Cydia and Installer based on features, not application availability. I just really want to see everything in one place (OK, two places including the AppStore). This makes things easier for developers and users alike and if Nullriver/RipDev are truly dedicated to the community as you think they are, they would find a way to cooperate with Cydia.



    Agreed, I don't like it at all. The icons/layout lack taste and look like the kind of thing I'm used to seeing on Windows. Not really ugly, but not well thought out. What benefit could these huge icons have?
    FFS Im not even going to read all that you just posted up there its like a book,

    btw no one flame against each other below this line
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    Quote Originally Posted by zauriel View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly. I don't hate Cydia at all, and I hope that those who like Cydia more than Installer continue to have that opportunity to choose it. I prefer Installer, and I would like in return the same ability to choose to use that instead of Cydia. What I can't tolerate are those who argue in favor of one being removed from the picture entirely, whether it be Installer or Cydia. That's when it starts getting a little Hitler-esque.

    I extend heartfelt thanks to both the Installer folks as well as the Cydia folks in producing programs that we all can use to download our fave apps.
    Yea, I hope there's always an option... the more options, the better... for everyone.

    Also, I see your point and 100% agree with you, but understand there will ALWAYS be posts stuff like, "OmG InStalleR SUX0RZZZ, kiLL CyDIA!"

    No way to avoid that, no matter how good any arguments are, people will always have their own opinions, no matter how brash they might be.

    I'd rather just ignore those posts and look forward to posts about updates and what the new installer has to offer, etc.
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  11. #111
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    Am I the only one who feels that the design is rather "rogue"?

    The dark colors really make this design a tad disgusting :S

    The layout is all very un-'iphoney'

    I know that if I end up upgrading to 2.0, and install installer 4, then I'll certainly be re-making all the graphics to look better.

  12. #112
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    ....why are u posting screenshots without a link to original website iPhone. Новости и советы ?

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    i was so used to installer when i was on 1.1.3 and never had problems, and now that i am on cydia 2.0 , its just OK. nothing against cydia but i think i prefer installer

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    when it will be released did anyone known that

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    In about 2 weeks.

    Everytime I install/uninstall something from Cydia, the home button doesn't take me back to the homescreen, I have to push home+power button to force restart the iPhone.
    Does anyone know why this happens?

    Can't wait for Installer, hope it'll be available through Cydia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.T View Post
    In about 2 weeks.

    Everytime I install/uninstall something from Cydia, the home button doesn't take me back to the homescreen, I have to push home+power button to force restart the iPhone.
    Does anyone know why this happens?

    Can't wait for Installer, hope it'll be available through Cydia.
    Because you have to be patient and let it finish updateing/installing/uninstalling before it will bump itself back to the interface or springboard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.T View Post
    In about 2 weeks.

    Everytime I install/uninstall something from Cydia, the home button doesn't take me back to the homescreen, I have to push home+power button to force restart the iPhone.
    Does anyone know why this happens?

    Can't wait for Installer, hope it'll be available through Cydia.
    I cant wait for Installer also. Cydia is the poor mans Installer and there's not much you can do with it. I did install Quake but that about it. No summerboard, no customize, no games, no adding sources no nothing! Can someone please tell me why Cydia is better than Installer?
    OG iPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 4 and hopefully iPhone 2012 =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD914 View Post
    I cant wait for Installer also. Cydia is the poor mans Installer and there's not much you can do with it. I did install Quake but that about it. No summerboard, no customize, no games, no adding sources no nothing! Can someone please tell me why Cydia is better than Installer?
    Dude... did you read ANY of the previous posts in this thread? This has come up 1000 times. There is no summerboard or customize or games available for 2.0 firmware yet (outside of the app store of course) because they haven't been ported! This has NOTHING to do with either Installer or Cydia. If Installer was released today it would have just as little (maybe even less) apps than what are hosted on Cydia.
    Last edited by imode; 07-28-2008 at 10:05 PM.

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    wow i cant wait till this comes out my installer keeps crashing.

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    I think eta is around 2 weeks if I'm not mistaken. It's kinda pre beta right now and is just getting wrinkles ironed out

    I think eta is around 2 weeks if I'm not mistaken. It's kinda pre beta right now and is just getting wrinkles ironed out
    Last edited by cricketlang; 07-29-2008 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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