Installer 4 Preview - PICS

[fidosam]

Can't wait

[imode]

soooooo do we have a definite answer as to weather we will have to repwn if we already jailbroke the iphone when INSTALLER comes out?

Installer is an application just like any other application. There is no reason why you would need to "repwn" your phone. Just install it like any other application. If it is not hosted on Cydia then it will have to be installed manually.

[zauriel]

In fact, since Installer is all proprietary while Cydia is standards-based, they're probably having a harder time, which is why it's not out yet. Or maybe they're spending all their time on the unnecessary eye candy displayed in this thread.

Why is "eye candy" unnecessary? A well designed GUI to compliment the guts is not unnecessary, rather it is quite essential. Maybe you should tell Apple that they shouldn't spend time on their "eye candy" either and just put the iPhone out there with no bells or whistles. Screw the glass and aluminum! Give us a scrap metal iPhone!

Neither Installer nor Cydia control the quality or quantity of the apps, they just install 'em. Yes Installer could (in 1.1.4 and below) add unofficial sources and Cydia can't. Cydia already has some support for adding sources now, and Saurik has made sources the project's top priority, so I don't think it'll be too much more of a wait.

So Cydia is working on something that Installer had. And Installer is working on stuff the improve upon its previous incarnations that Cydia does. What's your point? Competition results in better programs for us all.

I think it's great that Cydia came out first for 2.0, because now it may have a chance to completely supplant Installer. Why do we need three package installers (including the AppStore)? What possible benefit does this have other than forcing you to check multiple locations for updates? What all of you really want is the quantity of apps available in Installer, not Installer itself.

Why do you assume that everyone who likes Installer isn't smart enough to realize that just because they get this new version working on 2.0, it won't contain all the apps listed back on 1.1.4? That's mighty pretentious of you. I certainly can't speak for everyone out there, but I want Installer. Itself. You're right, it does suck to check multiple locations for updates. Which is why as soon as Installer 4 is ready and hosting packages, I will be downloading everything I want from there, and the only things I will be downloading from Cydia are things I can't get from Installer, same as I did on 1.1.4. Installer was there first, and they've been hard at work on getting this new version running. Cydia is not going to supplant it. But don't stop dreaming big.

Cydia is just plain better even if it's not as pretty.

If Cydia and Installer were potential girlfriends, I'd rather go with the prettier one that's not *quite* as smart but still gets the same ::ahem:: job done.

Who writes installer? Why do they do it? What if they start charging a fee to use it? What if they start installing spyware without your knowledge? How would you know? Nullriver is just some company (that's now selling apps on the AppStore) who has who knows what agenda for Installer.

Why not accuse the Installer folks of clubbing baby seals while you're at it? It's easy to start throwing around accusations that have no basis in reality. I mean, what if Cydia started requiring you to enter in your social security number in order to use it?!?!1!

Ever installed something in Installer that told you, once installed, that you have to install something else before you can use it? Yeah, Cydia and every other package manager in the world would have done that for you (it's called dependencies).

No, I never ran into a case where I downloaded something from Installer and then, after being fully installed, had that program tell me I needed something else first. This was usually because Installer allowed app devs to input their own warnings during the download process that told you if you needed something else (first example that pops to mind is ScrewCommon and vWallpaper). I never had any surprises. It's a moot point anyway, as the new Installer eliminates that need.

In short, I agree that most iPhone users would be best off waiting. But you're not waiting for Installer.

Yes. Yes I am. And I'd thank you kindly not to advise me what I am or am not waiting for and why. Stick to your own opinions on the Installer/Cydia battle, rather than talk down to those that don't like the program you back. If you like Cydia, great. Use it. Promote it. Whatever. Just don't treat those of us that prefer Installer like children who don't know what's going on.

[tommy202]

I have pwnd up too 2.0 and am quite happy with cydia. It's not as bad as ppl make out for godsake. Think everyone needs to chilli out a little installer is just around the corner. I myself would just like to be upto date on everything!

[jwaschbisch]

I think that everyone needs to calm down a little. Why is the whole installer/cydia thing such a heated debate? I personally could care less which one makes you pop a trouser tent. Thanks to all the developers responsible for cydia and installer; without you I could never pimp my phone.

[lostgame]

Listen, I've gotta say, I like Cydia, and while I agree with those that say the Cydia hate is 99% centered around the lack of apps and n00bs who're begging for their summerboard, I have to say that cydia is horridly unstable and crashes consistently on my 3G. I've had nothing but problems with it since I installed it and had the exact same problems on my iPod touch 1.1.4. These problems never happened with installer - it's been stable and issue-free on my touch since 1.1.1. So while Cydia may get the job done, I'd prefer to have a stable, well-rounded program than a rushed, open effort.

[codeseven]

I'd have to agree with lostgame. As far as stability, personally I think Installer does an excellent job. I had Cydia back on my 1.1.3 (maybe it has improved since then) and had nothing but issues with it - and issues with uninstalling it. But, to each their own. I can't wait for this new Installer to come out. It's looking great. And just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, there is no need to for repwning the iPhone to put the new Installer on there, correct? Like mentioned above, it's an app just like any other?

[imode]

I'd have to agree with lostgame. As far as stability, personally I think Installer does an excellent job. I had Cydia back on my 1.1.3 (maybe it has improved since then) and had nothing but issues with it - and issues with uninstalling it. But, to each their own. I can't wait for this new Installer to come out. It's looking great. And just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, there is no need to for repwning the iPhone to put the new Installer on there, correct? Like mentioned above, it's an app just like any other?

To Repeat: Installer is an Application. It is no different than any other app you install on your iPhone. It is not some special app that requires re-pwning. When it becomes available you will install it from Cydia or install it manually.

[vinividiiphone]

lh99 - couldn't agree more.

[Commodore Calderon]

Awesome, hope to have all three on my phone when this comes out. Now if my borken glass screen could fix itself with a program that would be sweet.

[Conn18]

There really is no need for installer any more.. It should just be left to die, like it inevitably will in the future.

[MyStur]

and when it will be the release date

[vanliren]

2.0 supported? I found that installer is much more easy to use than cydia.

[agentfubu]

Am I the only one who finds this somewhat... ugly?

The graphics look almost cheesy and way too big for me.

[Zwayne]

I like cydia now it is great!

[kapildevn15]

nice pics o installer. loved those. i hope it's coming soon so i can pwn my iphone again to install the installer

[vinividiiphone]

Why not accuse the Installer folks of clubbing baby seals while you're at it? It's easy to start throwing around accusations that have no basis in reality. I mean, what if Cydia started requiring you to enter in your social security number in order to use it?!?!1!

you're setting up a strawman argument.

the facts are, installer is not open source. if the owners had a profit motive, if there were accidental or intentional vulnerabilities, or if a hole suddenly opened up and they disappeared, there could be huge ramifications. Not so with Cydia. The source code is available for peer review and improvement, if Saurik had ill intentions or could no longer support the project, it would live on through others.

i'm not saying the installer folks aren't honorable, well intentioned people. i have no idea, but frankly, it's not something i need to worry about with Cydia.

what's continually lacking is an argument based on installer's technical merits. what is it about installer that's better than Cydia? while there are many arguments in favor of Cydia's apt system, which is well documented and tried on millions of linux/bsd systems over many years, i haven't heard a single pro-point for installer.

pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, eh?

[fearcevill]

Looks nice, I like installer alot more

[lh99]

Ih99....

You're too reasonable!!

::head exploads::

Except for the frothing at the mouth paranoia about null river when they have clearly demonstrated their commitment to this community, you are very correct.
A tip of the hat to your mostly balanced point.

Yeah, I could have gone a bit lighter on the Nullriver (and now, apparently RipDev) criticism, but I don't really regret it. It's nice to see that RipDev is providing some information about the upcoming release, design decisions, progress, etc. What I never liked about Nullriver/Installer is how it just appeared from nowhere, with virtually no documentation, no project roadmap, etc. There's one crummy page on NullRiver's site about it that's very vague. Most of what we know about it is from people using/exploring it. This hasn't really changed much since those early days. The only reason Installer became so popular is that no one was able to (or found the time to) create a worthy competitor, until recently. And yes, I remember (and used in place of Installer) the short-lived PLX/Breezy/Shimmer project.

I really do like how the Dev Team (and Saurik specifically) actually talk about what's going on, why they're doing it, what problems they're having, etc. This may not mean a lot to the casual user who doesn't understand how programming/hacking works, but it means a whole lot to me. I like knowing what I'm installing, rather than just blindly loading whatever binaries look interesting.

I'm still upset with Nullriver for never following through with their promise to make Installer open-source. There are certain things that make sense to be closed-source, but an app like Installer does not. It's not like there's any really secret technology in use in Installer; there are plenty of open source apps that have similar navigation, features, etc (Cydia, for example). I can't think of a reason to keep it closed other than future plans to add AppStore-like purchasing features or monthly usage charges (either of which might explain RipDev's involvement). That's fine if they want to start incorporating a fees-based model, but I think most of us who want to buy apps will buy them through the AppStore, and most devs will want to sell there too due to the much larger audience. I've considered buying things like Kate and Intelliscreen before, but I value the Apple updates over these mods and don't want to end up having to choose between the next firmware update and a 3rd party hack I already paid for.

Why does open-source matter? I guess it's more idealism on my part (and many others), but in a small development community (especially one at the mercy of Apple's whims at all times), sharing of information is crucial for developers to continue to improve their software and keep pace with firmware updates. It just makes for better software. If Installer were open-source, the unofficial iPhone developers could review and improve the code as they find issues working with it. Since Installer is a community app (it supports applications from hundreds of developers), doesn't it make sense for those developers to have input into the program that installs their apps? Right now, they can just email Nullriver/RipDev and hope that they have the time to work on something eventually. Cydia solves all of these problems. Even if it's not perfect yet, it'll get updated and improve faster than Installer simply because it's open-source (and now it's being heavily used in Installer's absence).

Why is "eye candy" unnecessary? A well designed GUI to compliment the guts is not unnecessary, rather it is quite essential. Maybe you should tell Apple that they shouldn't spend time on their "eye candy" either and just put the iPhone out there with no bells or whistles. Screw the glass and aluminum! Give us a scrap metal iPhone!

Don't get me wrong, I like my fair share of "pretty" GUI's, such as OS X and Delicious Library (which is full of eye candy). But there's a place for fancy graphics, and there's a place for efficiency. An package manager should be functional first and attractive second. Also, don't confuse flashy graphics and reflections with usability. There are plenty of apps out there that look great, but clearly weren't designed to be easy to use. Apple's design process focuses on identifying why, how, and where someone will use a given product, then they figure out what features/functions are necessary and how to organize them to make them dead-simple and efficient to use. Compare any Apple product to the competition and you'll see the difference between a process that focuses on features and a process that focuses on the user experience. An of course it has to look beautiful, but not at the expense of performance or usability.

For the record, Apple has made a few missteps along the way, such as the hockey puck mouse and the reflective dock in OS X Leopard, but they're pretty good as a whole.

So Cydia is working on something that Installer had. And Installer is working on stuff the improve upon its previous incarnations that Cydia does. What's your point? Competition results in better programs for us all.

No point much beyond that, but right now Cydia has a lot of the features Installer should have, and Installer only has a couple of features Cydia should have (my opinion, of course). From the looks of it, they're basically rewriting Installer from the ground up to make all of the necessary improvements, so I don't see how past versions of Installer will predict in any way how Installer 4.0 will work. It'll probably be buggy. It might even be missing features you liked from Installer 3. I haven't used 4.0, so I don't know, but you can't expect it the experience to be exactly the same.

Why do you assume that everyone who likes Installer isn't smart enough to realize that just because they get this new version working on 2.0, it won't contain all the apps listed back on 1.1.4? That's mighty pretentious of you. I certainly can't speak for everyone out there, but I want Installer. Itself. You're right, it does suck to check multiple locations for updates. Which is why as soon as Installer 4 is ready and hosting packages, I will be downloading everything I want from there, and the only things I will be downloading from Cydia are things I can't get from Installer, same as I did on 1.1.4. Installer was there first, and they've been hard at work on getting this new version running. Cydia is not going to supplant it. But don't stop dreaming big.

Just tell me, other than the apparent "brand loyalty" that Installer has because it was first, why? Can you give us a specific reason? Aside from being able to add sources (which has already been discussed enough for me), what does Installer bring to the table that Cydia doesn't? I haven't seen a single post that identifies a specific advantage. Stability does not count -- no one knows how stable the new Installer is going to be yet.

From my perspective, and I've been using both package managers since they first came out, most of the differences are cosmetic. Cydia has a much better "Changes" screen. Installer lets you add apps to a queue (which gets screwed up if something in the queue fails to install, but it's still nice). Other than that, what differences are there? The new Cydia icon is, in my opinion, as nice as Installer's. So unless you hate brown for some reason, what's so great about Installer?

Since I haven't seen any logical arguments for Installer, I have to assume that most of its proponents want the apps it used to have.

Why not accuse the Installer folks of clubbing baby seals while you're at it? It's easy to start throwing around accusations that have no basis in reality. I mean, what if Cydia started requiring you to enter in your social security number in order to use it?!?!1!

Granted, but if Cydia did start doing shady stuff, at least I could create my own branch of the code that didn't.

Yes. Yes I am. And I'd thank you kindly not to advise me what I am or am not waiting for and why. Stick to your own opinions on the Installer/Cydia battle, rather than talk down to those that don't like the program you back. If you like Cydia, great. Use it. Promote it. Whatever. Just don't treat those of us that prefer Installer like children who don't know what's going on.

What would be great is if Installer just used the same repository format that Cydia does, rendering this whole discussion moot. They probably won't do it, but if they did, users could select between Cydia and Installer based on features, not application availability. I just really want to see everything in one place (OK, two places including the AppStore). This makes things easier for developers and users alike and if Nullriver/RipDev are truly dedicated to the community as you think they are, they would find a way to cooperate with Cydia.

Am I the only one who finds this somewhat... ugly?

The graphics look almost cheesy and way too big for me.

Agreed, I don't like it at all. The icons/layout lack taste and look like the kind of thing I'm used to seeing on Windows. Not really ugly, but not well thought out. What benefit could these huge icons have?

[zenj]

today the installer does not show recent programs like of today , yesterday and day before when refreshing it.

Is there anything wrong with it ?