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Originally Posted by saurik
There are fewer apps available, period, anywhere, because people are using Installer and also not using Cydia. Using both isn't a problem if everyone were using both and not forcing developers to support Installer by ignoring Cydia then we wouldn't have a problem; options are good, competition is amazing. The issue is that by only ever using Installer users are pretty much demanding that it be supported, which means that the costs of constructing applications is higher, which means fewer applications. Put another way: you won't find more applications in Cydia because we (the developers) are wasting our time trying to support Installer (and especially BSD Subsystem) because we have to to get users, in turn because you demand it.
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If there are truly as many developers as you say who complain about coding their software for Installer, it's not much of a longshot to say that if you all suddenly, oh, just stopped packaging for Installer and did Cydia only, people would flock to the package delivery app that actually had good packages to deliver. I think it's safe to say that despite what the ratio is of users between the two, most jailbreakers using Installer
know about Cydia, and lack of apps at their primary source of download would direct them to the alternative. Continuing to support your competition while you're trying to promote your own product doesn't leave you much room to complain about how many people still use your competition. So given that you've had the advantage for a while now on 2.0, why don't you just do that? Unless, that is, all those developers you indicate are fed up with Installer don't add up to a significant enough amount.
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We don't have J2ME, for example, support anywhere because I had to waste my time writing Cydia because NullRiver stopped working on Installer sometime around October (and only started up again due to competition by Cydia, and only just long enough to add a search feature). Installer still doesn't work well enough to package something that complicated reasonably correctly, so when and if it is ready you still won't get it via Installer.
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Being a normal end-user jailbreaker, the fact that I don't have access to J2ME apps and whether I will or won't in the future isn't exactly a compelling argument. If cooler games are available through Cydia and not Installer, then I'll install them from Cydia. Simple.
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If you don't believe me on these points, you really have to try packaging for Installer.
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Yeah, I'll get right on that.
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You find yourself continually saying things like: "its taking me days to make an Installer package, and users don't have this other package installed? *sigh*, fine, let's figure out a way to compile that into my program; and that doesn't work?!? why isn't anyone fixing that... that's weird". You are requiring me (yes, because if I want my software to be seen I have to support the tool you are using) to use a tool that doesn't work.
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As an end-user (and if you haven't realized by now, this is the bulk of people downloading apps), I know nothing of "what it takes" to get an app on either Installer or Cydia, nor is it my chief concern when deciding on which program to use. Don't get me wrong, I understand how it can get frustrating when others don't see things from your perspective, but the truth of the matter is most of us don't factor any of that stuff in, whether it's out of sheer ignorance or simply because we don't care. It's not going to change. Don't blame me because I've previously installed apps through Installer. Nobody's twisting your arm to keep making your software available for them as well as Cydia. It's your decision, as it is for every other developer out there.
[/quote]Really, the problem with adding sources is that everyone thinks they can add Installer sources to Cydia. They see a page with 25 sources out there and think "why can't I add those to Cydia?". Even worse, many of those same people are trying to add 1.x sources to Cydia on 2.x, are wondering why that doesn't work, and seem to actually be holding out for Installer so they can add those sources, not realizing that those sources /still/ won't work as 1.x software doesn't work on 2.x. The Add Sources argument is a red herring.[/quote]
Why do you think there came to be sites with lists of sources like that? Were they there on day one of Installer's release? For the love of God, man, 2.0 isn't even a month old yet. The expectation is that eventually, there will be new sources for repositories with 2.x software. And should Cydia pick up a load of users (mostly due to Installer's unavailability right now, allowing for more people to get accustomed to your program), then who knows how many more devs will start their own repositories for Cydia?
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Also, I find the idea of having to think through the order of installation (something you have to do all the time on Installer as it has no dependencies, and even though 2.x will have dependencies it won't have the ability to conflict with another package or to replace it or anything like that) very unintuitive and /un/friendly. I'm not certain, therefore, why everyone thinks Installer is more "user friendly".
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We're talking about the interface, not conflicts in downloads. And for the record, despite all the talk of dependencies, I never once had a problem with Installer. Maybe I never tried to download a program that would have conflicted with another program, but it was just never a problem. And as I've pointed out before, the warning messages that devs were able to place suited me just fine to alert me when I needed another program to make the first one work (again I present as an example vWallpaper's notification that SkrewCommon was necessary). But as you've pointed out, moot point as dependencies are in the new version.
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Please, please, give me /constructive/ criticism on the interface. I can put together a long laundry list of things Installer is doing wrong on their interface design and bugs in their product (the previous paragraph is just a drop in the bucket). So far, though, all the specific issues people have listed in this thread aren't even issues in Cydia anymore.
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No one's saying the improvements made to Cydia as of late aren't beneficial. I was glad to see the ability to select yourself as an end-user to weed out the packages that we didn't need to see. Glad to see the source editor. Glad to see the icons for the packages. And I think that the 'Manage' main screen is much improved. When I talk about the interface, I'm talking about making it more "clean". A lot of that isn't something I can just tell you how to improve; it deals with the icons used, colors, fonts, button placement, etc. But if you want a suggestion for an improvement, then I would put forth that you should extend the short description when browsing through a list of apps. Right now you get about 7 words in before it cuts off to an ellipse, and in many cases it's not fully understood what the app may be unless you select it. You should make at least 2 lines viewable for each app. In the same vein, it would (in my opinion) look better if the section icons on each app were enlarged, the app source removed (so that it only appears if you've selected the app), and the short descripition aligned with the title (not underneath the icon). Oh, and are the timestamps of the changes really necessary? This is half the reason I like the "Recent Packages" in Installer, because it's boiled down to Today, Yesterday, and Older. In Cydia's case, I think Today and Yesterday would work, and since it keeps a longer list of changes, remove the timestamp and just put the day and date (e.g., Friday, August 1st) for any that are older.
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The main thing I currently think needs to be improved is the screen that pops up when you are installing a package: that black screen with the white text needs to be improved. But it isn't really a UI problem as it doesn't actually do anything different than Installer did: both are showing a progress bar at the bottom, both are waiting while you install, etc..
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Coincidentally, this is one thing I
wouldn't change. I'd rather see the commands as they're being done than stare at only a bar; makes me feel like I know something is actually getting done. But that's my personal preference.
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I'm sorry, but what I'm saying there is true and it's sad. ... Maybe RiPDev will be better, only time will tell.
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Well then how about you wait until all is said and done before lambasting their work that hasn't even debuted yet? Cydia is slowly getting more likeable to me; but your (and others') attitudes toward Installer (whether NullRiver or RiPDev) are off-putting.
08-03-2008, 11:41 PM
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