View Poll Results: Should all talk of App Sync be a taboo?

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  • No - stop blaming a useful tool for how some have used it.

    5 0.03%
  • Yes - anything that can be used for wrong are automatically evil.

    0 0%
  • Yes - the incredibly vast majority of people who use this are strictly doing so for piracy reasons

    15,002 99.97%
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Thread: Should discussing a tool be taboo just because it /can/ be used negatively?

  1. #1
    Question Should discussing a tool be taboo just because it /can/ be used negatively?
    Dear staff and everyone else on this site, I have recently become aware of a rule on this site that apparently prohibits in the discussion of a certain tool called App Sync, which allows one to sync any app, bypassing the signature check. MY problem with this is that App Sync is a tool, much like any other jail-break related tweaks and utilities that many use, which is in-line with the whole spirt of jail-breaking an iOS device.

    A certain moderator in another thread who made this rule apparent to me seems to be under the mistaken impression that this tool was expressly created to allow for piracy, which is wrong. This particular tool allows one to sync multiple versions of, or instances of the same app, as well as preserve an older version while still being able to test out the latest one, etc, none of which have anything to do with piracy.

    I have no problem what so ever with wanting to keep out discussions relating to piracy, but censoring any topic that has anything to do with a tool that can be used for negative purposes does people a disservice, creating a false perception of an otherwise useful tool.

  2. #2
    I agree that this is a useful tool and I've used it for all the reasons you listed, which mainly consists of running older versions of some choice apps that I preferred while at the same time having the newer one too for testing to see if I like it again. I really don't know of any other way to do this without App Sync, since iTunes wont normally allow an app to be uploaded to a device unless it passes the signature checks. That's all App Sync does, is get around the sig checks, so it is no more evil then running ldid -S. I'd go as far as calling it disingenuous to force ones own belief on others to the point of building a wall around something which has many positive uses. I really hope the staff here can see some reason.

  3. #3
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    I have asked one of the owners to weigh in on this. When he gets a minute he will take a look.
    I will ask (again) though with regard to why and how this tool came about. Who was the developer of app sync?

  4. #4
    Super Duper Moderator blkcadi's Avatar
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    while still being able to test out the latest one, etc, none of which have anything to do with piracy.
    Your statement here pretty much sums it up IMHO, testing an app prior to purchase is a nice feature (and offered with some apps) but if it is not offered it would still be considered pirating/theft.
    Just sayin'...

  5. #5
    I have a bunch of very valid points about this subject here:
    Site Policy?
    mod/edit links removed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by blkcadi View Post
    Your statement here pretty much sums it up IMHO, testing an app prior to purchase is a nice feature (and offered with some apps) but if it is not offered it would still be considered pirating/theft.
    Just sayin'...
    I think he was talking about keeping an older version while not risking having a newer version get installed over it, and running both the old and the current up to date version at the same time, on the same device. This to me is a useful feature and it's completely legitimate, and it seems there is an awful lot go ignorance surrounding it. I 100% agree that piracy related topics should be kept out, but just talking a about a tool, about it's many positive usages, is not the same and should be perfectly allowable.

    Thank you and regards.

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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    I think he was talking about keeping an older version while not risking having a newer version get installed over it, and running both the old and the current up to date version at the same time, on the same device. This to me is a useful feature and it's completely legitimate, and it seems there is an awful lot go ignorance surrounding it. I 100% agree that piracy related topics should be kept out, but just talking a about a tool, about it's many positive usages, is not the same and should be perfectly allowable.

    Thank you and regards.
    I don't think this person reads well. Same kind of reply that doesn't address the point on my post.....
    mod/edit links removed.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by blkcadi View Post
    Your statement here pretty much sums it up IMHO, testing an app prior to purchase is a nice feature (and offered with some apps) but if it is not offered it would still be considered pirating/theft.
    Just sayin'...
    I think you misread or misunderstood what I meant. I was talking about having two (or more) versions of an app (that was aquired legitimately) running on your device, without one getting clobbered by another via updates. This is done by simply changing the bundle identifier string in the metadata.plist and info.plist files, so the system just sees it as a separate app. This can be done with free and paid apps alike. There is no piracy/theft what so ever involved if you already aquired it legitimately.

  10. #9
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    Hello, App Sync can in fact be used in a very few legitimate uses, yes. However, the vast (as in VAST, as in 99.99%) percentage of users who use App Sync do so for illegal purposes (piracy, copyright violation - even on an older version the app has to be cracked and redistributed without the author's permission). That is the reason we disallow conversation about it.

    Does the very small minority of people who use it legitimately mean we should allow any and all discussion? Probably not, just as the vast majority in the poll seems to indicate it's a piracy tool.

    Now, if you have a fully valid, 100% legal reason to use that, I doubt we'd simply shut down the topic, but the reality is - "you" as in the general "you" probably don't.

    If you have a valid IPA file, you can use IPA installer or iTunes to install it. If you need a previous version, you can make sure you sync your device with iTunes, then grab the IPA file that's now on your computer, and keep it on your computer safe in case you need to use it later. This way, no illegal redistribution was used to obtain it. The IPA can now be installed through legal means.

    I appreciate the discussion, and am happy to clarify, but the policy will stay intact.

    (much of these details came from a conversation between myself, britta from SaurikIT, and Optimo).
    Last edited by Kyle Matthews; 03-04-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    Hello, App Sync can in fact be used in a very few legitimate uses, yes. However, the vast (as in VAST, as in 99.99%) percentage of users who use App Sync do so for illegal purposes (piracy, copyright violation - even on an older version the app has to be cracked and redistributed without the author's permission). That is the reason we disallow conversation about it.

    If you have a valid IPA file, you can use IPA installer or iTunes to install it. If you need a previous version, you can make sure you sync your device with iTunes, then grab the IPA file that's now on your computer, and keep it on your computer safe in case you need to use it later. This way, no illegal redistribution was used to obtain it. The IPA can now be installed through legal means.

    I appreciate the discussion, and am happy to clarify, but the policy will stay intact.

    (much of these details came from a conversation between myself, britta from SaurikIT, and Optimo).
    If you are the owner or a person that has the authority to speak officially for this site please address all of my post in the linked thread
    mod/edit links removed.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    Hello, App Sync can in fact be used in a very few legitimate uses, yes. However, the vast (as in VAST, as in 99.99%) percentage of users who use App Sync do so for illegal purposes (piracy, copyright violation - even on an older version the app has to be cracked and redistributed without the author's permission). That is the reason we disallow conversation about it.
    Would you care to actually back this up with some sort of facts? I honestly believe this is more of a tainted perception that's been push for so long now that it's seen as fact. Have certain repos been using and distributing it? Sure. But why is the tool itself considered the wrong doer instead of those who actually misuse it. and why is ldid considered ok when it essentially able to serve the same function - bypassing signature checks?

    If you have a valid IPA file, you can use IPA installer or iTunes to install it. If you need a previous version, you can make sure you sync your device with iTunes, then grab the IPA file that's now on your computer, and keep it on your computer safe in case you need to use it later. This way, no illegal redistribution was used to obtain it. The IPA can now be installed through legal means.
    You can only sync an IPA from iTunes to your device if the IPA hasn't been modified, as the signature needs to match the contents. Therefore you cannot have multiple versions of the same app installed at the same time without a tool like App Sync (or ldid if you don't mind doing a lot more work.)

    I appreciate the discussion, and am happy to clarify, but the policy will stay intact.
    Why not let people decide for themselves, instead of, you know, modifying a poll that is leaning rather well so far in the direction that you didn't like? Those who have voted so far seem to disagree with you. Again, please stop attacking the tool. Attack those who misuse it.

  14. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    Would you care to actually back this up with some sort of facts?
    http://bit.ly/YO2b7P

    Here are your facts or as close as you can get to them. Add up how many links there are to do with cracked apps and how many are to do with the legitimate uses you described. If the first page is any indication Kyle's 99.9% is probably pretty accurate.

  15. #13
    Default Dear Kyle
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    Hello, App Sync can in fact be used in a very few legitimate uses, yes. However, the vast (as in VAST, as in 99.99%) percentage of users who use App Sync do so for illegal purposes (piracy, copyright violation - even on an older version the app has to be cracked and redistributed without the author's permission). That is the reason we disallow conversation about it.

    Does the very small minority of people who use it legitimately mean we should allow any and all discussion? Probably not, just as the vast majority in the poll seems to indicate it's a piracy tool.

    Now, if you have a fully valid, 100% legal reason to use that, I doubt we'd simply shut down the topic, but the reality is - "you" as in the general "you" probably don't.

    If you have a valid IPA file, you can use IPA installer or iTunes to install it. If you need a previous version, you can make sure you sync your device with iTunes, then grab the IPA file that's now on your computer, and keep it on your computer safe in case you need to use it later. This way, no illegal redistribution was used to obtain it. The IPA can now be installed through legal means.

    I appreciate the discussion, and am happy to clarify, but the policy will stay intact.

    (much of these details came from a conversation between myself, britta from SaurikIT, and Optimo).
    Kyle, with all due respect, I never --never-- seen any actual stats to confirm what you said at the start. And frankly, even if it's true, so what? It doesn't change the fact that it's still a tool. So what if some people or a lot of people misuse it, that shouldn't mean we need to bury any such tools in the sand along with our heads. Although I have my doubts as to your ability to reason with logic seeing as how easy for you it was to utterly falsify poll data above.

    Let me ask this: why not keep any talk relating to piracy off limits, like it already is, and if someone is talking about a positive task that can be performed with App Sync then leave it be? Is this really so much to ask?

    P.S. I'm not sure why you closed that other thread, so I apologize for posting this as a new thread. I really am finding this practice of needless censorship really is leaving a bad taste in my mouth of this site. I love this site, but I really don't thing these extremes to quite people are needed.

  16. #14
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    He made another thread lol

  17. #15
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    Kyle, with all due respect, I never --never-- seen any actual stats to confirm what you said at the start. And frankly, even if it's true, so what? It doesn't change the fact that it's still a tool. So what if some people or a lot of people misuse it, that shouldn't mean we need to bury any such tools in the sand along with our heads. Although I have my doubts as to your ability to reason with logic seeing as how easy for you it was to utterly falsify poll data above.

    Let me ask this: why not keep any talk relating to piracy off limits, like it already is, and if someone is talking about a positive task that can be performed with App Sync then leave it be? Is this really so much to ask?

    P.S. I'm not sure why you closed that other thread, so I apologize for posting this as a new thread. I really am finding this practice of needless censorship really is leaving a bad taste in my mouth of this site. I love this site, but I really don't thing these extremes to quite people are needed.
    He didn't close it. He actually wanted them both to stay open. Both are open again.

  18. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by djaquapimp View Post
    If you are the owner or a person that has the authority to speak officially for this site please address all of my post in the linked thread
    I am in fact the owner (one of two), and have done exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    Would you care to actually back this up with some sort of facts? I honestly believe this is more of a tainted perception that's been push for so long now that it's seen as fact. Have certain repos been using and distributing it? Sure. But why is the tool itself considered the wrong doer instead of those who actually misuse it.
    I would love to manually go through a thousand deleted threads in the past years and paste the contents of each one to you here, but I just don't feel the time is worth the payoff. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way - I merely mean, yes, I can back it up, and no, I don't think I need to spend hours to do so here.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    and why is ldid considered ok when it essentially able to serve the same function - bypassing signature checks?
    ldid is used mostly by developers of Cydia tools, for wholly legal reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    You can only sync an IPA from iTunes to your device if the IPA hasn't been modified, as the signature needs to match the contents. Therefore you cannot have multiple versions of the same app installed at the same time without a tool like App Sync (or ldid if you don't mind doing a lot more work.)
    True. This is a small fringe case which I agree with you is a valid use.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    Why not let people decide for themselves, instead of, you know, modifying a poll that is leaning rather well so far in the direction that you didn't like? Those who have voted so far seem to disagree with you. Again, please stop attacking the tool. Attack those who misuse it.
    I am more than happy to allow people to decide for themselves. I am stating site policy won't change though, as the tool has been proven here time and again to be piracy related. I have no issue with someone discussing fully legal ways to use it. But I foresee a very quick slide to "how do I use this, how do I do this, no I swear it's just cause I want two versions of this app" much as a canned response. In fact, in all the time App Sync has been out, this is the very first time someone has requested this use which I've seen.

    I playfully edited the poll as I was legitimately going to respond, but noticed your poll was completely swayed to your side - either yes, people agree, or no, with a slightly sarcastic comment followed which disregard the ACTUAL reason we had made the original policy. If your poll is merely a slightly fun-poking way to start the discussion, my response is merely a slightly fun-poking way of continuing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    Kyle, with all due respect, I never --never-- seen any actual stats to confirm what you said at the start. And frankly, even if it's true, so what? It doesn't change the fact that it's still a tool. So what if some people or a lot of people misuse it, that shouldn't mean we need to bury any such tools in the sand along with our heads.
    As stated above, my stats are from years of running this site and knowing the conversations that have gone on.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    Although I have my doubts as to your ability to reason with logic seeing as how easy for you it was to utterly falsify poll data above.
    I trust you're joking here, and don't actually believe we simply make up data for no reason. If, of course, you do think so - there's really no way I can dissuade you other than to state: we don't. My editing of the poll was explained in my previous post to this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    Let me ask this: why not keep any talk relating to piracy off limits, like it already is, and if someone is talking about a positive task that can be performed with App Sync then leave it be? Is this really so much to ask?
    I'm fine with that. My issue with this approach is also referred to above. It's kind of like the old example of "how do I fool a drug test into thinking I'm clean when I'm not? The only reason I ask is because I eat a lot of poppy seed muffins, like 100 a day, so it's completely legitimate."

    Quote Originally Posted by necrom View Post
    P.S. I'm not sure why you closed that other thread, so I apologize for posting this as a new thread. I really am finding this practice of needless censorship really is leaving a bad taste in my mouth of this site. I love this site, but I really don't thing these extremes to quite people are needed.
    I did not close it, and I've reopened it and let the mod know who did close we have no issues with discussing policy.
    Last edited by Kyle Matthews; 03-04-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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  19. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    I would love to manually go through a thousand deleted threads in the past years and paste the contents of each one to you here, but I just don't feel the time is worth the payoff. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way - I merely mean, yes, I can back it up, and no, I don't think I need to spend hours to do so here.
    With all due respect, I understand where you're coming from, I've been in the position of site owner, high level administrator, etc many many times over the years. But whether or not you can back it or not doesn't seem relevant. We know that it can and is used for negative reasons. I just feel that sites like this are attempting to force a perception that something is evil just because it is used for such by some. I can imagine pirates using Safari Download Manager to download updates for cracked apps. Should that mean that SDM should be regarded as a taboo? True, it doesn't have quite the dark reputation that App Sync has, but it can be abused to the same ends. I don't think something should be taboo, and people made to hate or fear something just because of how certain groups abuse it.

    I playfully edited the poll as I was legitimately going to respond, but noticed your poll was completely swayed to your side - either yes, people agree, or no, with a slightly sarcastic comment followed which disregard the ACTUAL reason we had made the original policy. If your poll is merely a slightly fun-poking way to start the discussion, my response is merely a slightly fun-poking way of continuing it.
    Both my posts and the poll were meant to be serious. I wanted to gauge what people around MMI might think on the subject, and I'd really appreciate it if you could restore for that sake.

    Thank you for you time.

  20. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    whether or not you can back it or not doesn't seem relevant.
    Very well. I only mentioned this because you said "Would you care to actually back this up with some sort of facts?"

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    I just feel that sites like this are attempting to force a perception that something is evil just because it is used for such by some. I can imagine pirates using Safari Download Manager to download updates for cracked apps.
    Perhaps. If Safari download manager was mentioned hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times on ModMyi.com over the years, and EVERY SINGLE post was in regards to piracy, and mods had to close/delete every single one, I would most likely make a policy decision on that as well which would mirror my thoughts on App Sync.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    Both my posts and the poll were meant to be serious. I wanted to gauge what people around MMI might think on the subject, and I'd really appreciate it if you could restore for that sake.
    If your poll was meant to be serious, the options were not something I took seriously - it was kind of a "heads I win, tails you lose" kind of thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    No - stop blaming a useful tool for how some have used it.
    Yes - anything that can be used for wrong are automatically evil.
    I legitimately was going to answer, but realized there was no answer which actually was my stance - "Yes, if an alarming majority of discussion regarding this is piracy related." or something to that affect. Since you did not include that, I assumed you were putting the poll up merely to start the discussion.
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  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Matthews View Post
    Very well. I only mentioned this because you said "Would you care to actually back this up with some sort of facts?"
    Fair enough. I may have rushed to respond to that one, if only because I see far too many people in general attempt to speak to stats that they've either never seen or don't exist, or just can't be reliably confirmed. App Sync has a reputation, and as someone posted, google does show that, but on the other hand it's hard to gauge how many use it for positive uses when so many are afraid to talk about it for fear of incurring a forum moderators wrath due to the taboo that's been created.

    Perhaps. If Safari download manager was mentioned hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times on ModMyi.com over the years, and EVERY SINGLE post was in regards to piracy, and mods had to close/delete every single one, I would most likely make a policy decision on that as well which would mirror my thoughts on App Sync.
    Another valid point, but again, I feel it should be pointed out that maybe there are so few posts about it is 1) the good uses tend to be rather self explanatory for tech level of the people who would normally use them, and 2) again, a lot of people might be very reluctant and/or fearful to discuss it given the policy here and perhaps elsewhere. So again, you're gauging that's missing a good deal of (potential) data due to the this very policy.

    If your poll was meant to be serious, the options were not something I took seriously - it was kind of a "heads I win, tails you lose" kind of thing:

    I legitimately was going to answer, but realized there was no answer which actually was my stance - "Yes, if an alarming majority of discussion regarding this is piracy related." or something to that affect. Since you did not include that, I assumed you were putting the poll up merely to start the discussion.
    Well, I was hoping it would help get the discussion going, true, but it was also meant to see what people around here thought as well. At any rate, you could have ask me about it (here or privately) and I would have gladly answered, and to be honest, I would agree that the wording in the poll question and answers could have been better, though I think it drove my point (as I saw it at the time), that a useful tool was being punished because of how people use it. If I had the ability to edit them, I would have, to be honest.

  22. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    I feel it should be pointed out that maybe there are so few posts about it is 1) the good uses tend to be rather self explanatory for tech level of the people who would normally use them, and 2) again, a lot of people might be very reluctant and/or fearful to discuss it given the policy here and perhaps elsewhere. So again, you're gauging that's missing a good deal of (potential) data due to the this very policy.
    To be honest, I'd never even thought of SDM as a piracy tool - I use it to download zips and things clients/friends send me usually. Work stuff. There's a plethora of content on the web it enables saving to my device, piracy being a very small percentage of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by alanjf View Post
    I would agree that the wording in the poll question and answers could have been better, though I think it drove my point (as I saw it at the time), that a useful tool was being punished because of how people use it. If I had the ability to edit them, I would have, to be honest.
    Cool. It's essentially a moot point, as the only thing that will see the policy changed is Cody or myself making a decision to do so, which we are open to discussion regarding ANY policy. However, on this specific one, I think it will most likely stay as is.

    I will state if someone has a completely valid reason for using something, and discussion is wholly around that, then it's fine. But I believe the original spark that brought all this up was "ah man, this is conflicting with App Sync!"
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