The Great Debate

[NewdestinyX]

If you see my 3GS example above cydia missed the 4.3.3 SHSH for it. 4.3.3 was an important SHSH to have at the time since 4.3.4 and 4.3.5 never received untethered jailbreaks.

Fair enough. My 4.3.3's were automatically saved. Not sure why yours weren't.

No, it's not. 6.0.2 was only for iPhone 5 and iPad Mini remember.

Sure I remember - but 6.0.2 will never be needed again. And we knew that a long time ago since the devs were working on 6.1 jailbreak that would jailbreak ALL 6... Again - the hype was not needed. Sure- you need to be an educated reader and have KNOWN that the devs were going to have an untether for everything from 6.0-->6.1. But still..

Not hyped at all.

Agree to disagree, bro.

It is the safe and prudent thing to do. Always better to be safe then sorry.

Fair enough.

[Simon]

Ah - okay, Simon! This is huge! You always educate me a little further. It's very good to know we can upload ("now-older") SHSH's for a current un-jailbreakable device before the signing window closes on those older ones. BUT - my point still stands - that you'd never need the older ones once a jailbreak is promised out. I tend to see the "back up SHSH quick!" warnings before a jailbreak is ready to drop. So in this case - people saving their 6.0.2 blobs is a total waste - since you'd never need them ever again after 6.1 drops. NOW - when 6.1.1 is on the horizon - check Cydia and if it hasn't already saved 6.1 - then by all means manually get them to Cydia with the Redsn0w method.

Thanks for the education --- again.. ;-/

What happens if Apple releases a 6.1.1 very quickly (Anthony has been warning of this). Say you don't get a chance to jailbreak the first week so cydia doesn't save them. Then 6.1.1 is released to patch the jailbreak and whoops, 6.1 SHSH cannot be saved anymore. I admit this is not the most likely of scenarios but it is not impossible. Especially seeing how fast Apple stopped signing 6.0.1/6.0.2. You wouldn't want to be left out in the cold with no way of getting those precious 6.1 SHSH just because you assumed cydia would get them for you.

[NewdestinyX]

What happens if Apple releases a 6.1.1 very quickly (Anthony has been warning of this). Say you don't get a chance to jailbreak the first week so cydia doesn't save them. Then 6.1.1 is released to patch the jailbreak and whoops, 6.1 SHSH cannot be saved anymore. I admit this is not the most likely of scenarios but it is not impossible. Especially seeing how fast Apple stopped signing 6.0.1/6.0.2. You wouldn't want to be left out in the cold with no way of getting those precious 6.1 SHSH just because you assumed cydia would get them for you.

You're making wild hypotheticals there to make your point, bro. As I've said. EVERY SINGLE major iOS release version that was jailbreakable, on every device of mine, since 3GS, has been auto-saved by Cydia. I simply have NO experience whatsoever to tell me to start using TinyUmbrella. I appreciate that you think it's important. I do not. But because I'm a learner I will want to learn the RedSnow method of saving to Cydia.

We live in a CLOUD world now, Simon. I'm on the road 80% of the time. I simply am not near my computer enough to want to have to grab blobs saved there. At Cydia - they're IN THE CLOUD and always saved. If there were a way to 'fully restore' from the cloud (not just restore a backup) a would love that too. Then iTunes would never again be needed. But we're not QUITE there yet - are we.

You're not gonna change my mind on this one, bro - though I know you LOOOVE the challenge..

[Simon]

You're making wild hypotheticals there to make your point, bro. As I've said. EVERY SINGLE major iOS release version that was jailbreakable, on every device of mine, since 3GS, has been auto-saved by Cydia. I simply have NO experience whatsoever to tell me to start using TinyUmbrella. I appreciate that you think it's important. I do not. But because I'm a learner I will want to learn the RedSnow method of saving to Cydia.

We live in a CLOUD world now, Simon. I'm on the road 80% of the time. I simply am not near my computer enough to want to have to grab blobs saved there. At Cydia - they're IN THE CLOUD and always saved. If there were a way to 'fully restore' from the cloud (not just restore a backup) a would love that too. Then iTunes would never again be needed. But we're not QUITE there yet - are we.

You're not gonna change my mind on this one, bro - though I know you LOOOVE the challenge..

Don't want to change your mind. Just don't want you going around MMi telling people don't worry, cydia will save you.

[aidanharris]

..[We live in a CLOUD world now, Simon. I'm on the road 80% of the time. I simply am not near my computer enough to want to have to grab blobs saved there. At Cydia - they're IN THE CLOUD and always saved. If there were a way to 'fully restore' from the cloud (not just restore a backup) a would love that too. Then iTunes would never again be needed. But we're not QUITE there yet - are we. ]..

Except by relying on the cloud you are relying on Sauriks Cydia servers to be online. As unlikely as the following scenario is what happens if Sauriks Servers experience a power outage or a data breach?

[NewdestinyX]

Don't want to change your mind. Just don't want you going around MMi telling people don't worry, cydia will save you.

I only share with MMI my personal experiences - just as you do, Simon. Tell me this - have you EVER needed to use one of your backed up Blobs, one that WAS NOT auto-saved on Cydia? Share with us the time/case.

Except by relying on the cloud you are relying on Sauriks Cydia servers to be online. As unlikely as the following scenario is what happens if Sauriks Servers experience a power outage or a data breach?

Infinitesimal chance of that happening. But since we've digressed to working with highly rare hypotheticals now - I will say - fair enough!

[Simon]

I only share with MMI my personal experiences - just as you do, Simon. Tell me this - have you EVER needed to use one of your backed up Blobs, one that WAS NOT auto-saved on Cydia? Share with us the time/case.

Infinitesimal chance of that happening. But since we've digressed to working with highly rare hypotheticals now - I will say - fair enough!

Ya, I needed those 4.3.3 SHSH for that 3GS back in the day. I had to settle for going to 4.2.1 instead at the time.
The difference between what you share with people and what I share with people is that you share your personal experience and generalize it for everybody (which is why people always start to argue with you). I don't just share my personal experience, I share everything I have learned from MMi and many other places from 6 years of accumulating it since the first iPhone (my first iPhone was jailbroken on 1.0.2). I share the views that the devs share with people to benefit everyone and to make sure people are as well protected and backed up just in case something DOES go wrong. I am very happy you seem to have had little issues with various things regarding idevices. That doesn't mean people should just blindly believe what you say and throw caution to the wind.

[Krima]

I only share with MMI my personal experiences - just as you do, Simon. Tell me this - have you EVER needed to use one of your backed up Blobs, one that WAS NOT auto-saved on Cydia? Share with us the time/case.

Infinitesimal chance of that happening. But since we've digressed to working with highly rare hypotheticals now - I will say - fair enough!

Don't forget NewDestiny it wasn't but a few weeks ago that you challenged the futility of restoring as a new device and not a backup. You insisted that it's a method perpetuated by everyone that restoring from backup causes issues so there is no need to do a restore as new device. Then viola, you had an issue restoring your iPhone 5 from backup.

This is the problem with dealing in certainties. You can not know everything and making a humble opinion like Simon versus a absolute statement will always be preferred and better received. Just my humble opinion. It's embarrassing to eat your own words so why not leave open the possibility that maybe you aren't right.

[aidanharris]

Can we all just abandon this thread now. The emails are starting to stack up :P

[NewdestinyX]

Ya, I needed those 4.3.3 SHSH for that 3GS back in the day. I had to settle for going to 4.2.1 instead at the time.
The difference between what you share with people and what I share with people is that you share your personal experience and generalize it for everybody (which is why people always start to argue with you). I don't just share my personal experience, I share everything I have learned from MMi and many other places from 6 years of accumulating it since the first iPhone (my first iPhone was jailbroken on 1.0.2).

I too have owned iPhones since the first and have been jailbreaking a LONG time (3 years) and I never share ONLY my experiences, Simon. You are more experienced - but when I share here it's from a LOT of homework and corroboration from many different sources. People here often get a little to insulated and believe that MMI knows all. You know I LOVE it here - but you're making it sound like I speak for '1' man and you speak for 'many'. That's not the case Simon. When I share something here I have lots of backing. To share only personal experience would be useless to the majority. People ARGUE with me because they've been following a 'group think' her many times, which is very powerful. I present a 'new' idea - different from the group think and then I get flamed.

I share the views that the devs share with people to benefit everyone and to make sure people are as well protected and backed up just in case something DOES go wrong.

This is your best argument. And I AGREE with you!! Really!

I am very happy you seem to have had little issues with various things regarding idevices. That doesn't mean people should just blindly believe what you say and throw caution to the wind.

Fair enough, in general, bro. But when something works, for LOTS of people, perfectly, the vast majority of the time - then there's really little 'caution' needed.

But the BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP credo is INDEED a good policy in general.

Listen to Simon everyone - he has HUGE experience. But 9.8 times out of 10 - Cydia will save everything you will 'ever need'. It has for me and for many.

[Anthony Bouchard]

The Great Debate thread. Debate all you like in here!

Wow Simon I really like what you've done with the place

[NewdestinyX]

Don't forget NewDestiny it wasn't but a few weeks ago that you challenged the futility of restoring as a new device and not a backup. You insisted that it's a method perpetuated by everyone that restoring from backup causes issues so there is no need to do a restore as new device. Then viola, you had an issue restoring your iPhone 5 from backup.

Please Krima, get the story accurate. You are trying to build a case that my input can't be trusted. I have had ZERO issues from a restore from backup. I just happened to 'note' that the numeric Wifi remained through a backup. Harmless. My iPhone 5 works perfectly. Please don't do what you just did there. It's disingenuous. And we've been doing very well.

I really hate to bring this up, but can you please take your back and forth to PM so that readers trying to learn about this jailbreak news can get their questions answered?

Thanks.

Surely. My apologies.

[Krima]

Please Krima, get the story accurate. You are trying to build a case that my input can't be trusted. I have had ZERO issues from a restore from backup. I just happened to 'note' that the numeric Wifi remained through a backup. Harmless. My iPhone 5 works perfectly. Please don't do what you just did there. It's disingenuous. And we've been doing very well.

Surely. My apologies.

I really wasn't trying to be disingenuous or try to have this " gotcha" moment. I know your iPhone 5 was working fine. I guess my point was that u said u have had zero problems and then u had a problem. U never made the distinction if I remember between a little problem versus a big problem. U said u NEVER had a problem restoring from backup. So let me ask u this. Did u fix your wifi bar issue and if u did why would u do that if it wasn't a problem? I'm interested In hearing what u did. We are doing well and I truly wasnt trying to come at you.

Just read Anthonys request, sorry man wasn't trying to hijack the thread. I won't post off topic again. Sorry.

[aidanharris]

I really wasn't trying to be disingenuous or try to have this " gotcha" moment. I know your iPhone 5 was working fine. I guess my point was that u said u have had zero problems and then u had a problem. U never made the distinction if I remember between a little problem versus a big problem. U said u NEVER had a problem restoring from backup. So let me ask u this. Did u fix your wifi bar issue and if u did why would u do that if it wasn't a problem? I'm interested In hearing what u did. We are doing well and I truly wasnt trying to come at you.

It's good to see a discussion going on here but I have to agree with Anthony. None of this is relevant to the original topic...

[NewdestinyX]

I really wasn't trying to be disingenuous or try to have this " gotcha" moment. I know your iPhone 5 was working fine. I guess my point was that u said u have had zero problems and then u had a problem. U never made the distinction if I remember between a little problem versus a big problem. U said u NEVER had a problem restoring from backup. So let me ask u this. Did u fix your wifi bar issue and if u did why would u do that if it wasn't a problem? I'm interested In hearing what u did. We are doing well and I truly wasnt trying to come at you.

Just read Anthonys request, sorry man wasn't trying to hijack the thread. I won't post off topic again. Sorry.

I had no problem with my Wi-Fi bar. Actually I considered it an upgrade :-) One you can do easily even unjailbroken with a tool on your computer. P.m. me if you want to learn about it.

[King_O_Hill]

What was the topic? Oh yeah, I see!

[Simon]

I too have owned iPhones since the first and have been jailbreaking a LONG time (3 years) and I never share ONLY my experiences, Simon. You are more experienced - but when I share here it's from a LOT of homework and corroboration from many different sources. People here often get a little to insulated and believe that MMI knows all. You know I LOVE it here - but you're making it sound like I speak for '1' man and you speak for 'many'. That's not the case Simon. When I share something here I have lots of backing. To share only personal experience would be useless to the majority. People ARGUE with me because they've been following a 'group think' her many times, which is very powerful. I present a 'new' idea - different from the group think and then I get flamed.

This is your best argument. And I AGREE with you!! Really!
Fair enough, in general, bro. But when something works, for LOTS of people, perfectly, the vast majority of the time - then there's really little 'caution' needed.

But the BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP credo is INDEED a good policy in general.

Listen to Simon everyone - he has HUGE experience. But 9.8 times out of 10 - Cydia will save everything you will 'ever need'. It has for me and for many.

I am calling it like I see it. Since my first encounters (the unlock threads) with you all I have seen is generalizations based on your own experiences. I have seen tons of opinions, percentages, probabilities, ratios etc etc etc. Not once that I can remember have I seen any proof of any of your "facts" or statements. Just endless "I have done this", "I have done that", "Everybody does this". "Everybody does that". I have never seen you actually submit any proof of any of it. Are we supposed to just take your word on everything you say because you have a convincing way of saying it?

[Krima]

I am calling it like I see it. Since my first encounters (the unlock threads) with you all I have seen is generalizations based on your own experiences. I have seen tons of opinions, percentages, probabilities, ratios etc etc etc. Not once that I can remember have I seen any proof of any of your "facts" or statements. Just endless "I have done this", "I have done that", "Everybody does this". "Everybody does that". I have never seen you actually submit any proof of any of it. Are we supposed to just take your word on everything you say because you have a convincing way of saying it?

I'm with you here man. I think this is a good point. Proof should be given about contradicting opinions. I'm sure NewDestiny would agree that he always ask for proof from others but delivers little to none himself. I think this is why people argue so much.

By the way, I love how this got changed to "The Great Debate".

[Simon]

I'm with you here man. I think this is a good point. Proof should be given about contradicting opinions. I'm sure NewDestiny would agree that he always ask for proof from others but delivers little to none himself. I think this is why people argue so much.

By the way, I love how this got changed to "The Great Debate".

Exactly.
Here is proof of my 3GS SHSH and proof that cydia missed saving some. 4.3.3 being an important one that was missed:

[Krima]

Exactly.
Here is proof of my 3GS SHSH and proof that cydia missed saving some. 4.3.3 being an important one that was missed:

Thank you. This is perfect. Not just random comments but proof to support your argument. If more people did this than the less back and forth would happen. Thats why when I debate with someone i try to support my point by referencing something that person said before. Im not trying to call them out just supporting my point. Its not a personal attack. If someone says that the never said something and u know they did, you will of course reference that incident. This isnt being a jerk. At the very least just say "I personally haven't had any issues" not "I personally haven't had any issues just like everyone here hasn't had any issues".

A rational and non emotional response Simon. Love it.