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Thread: The Great Debate

  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I'm not back pedaling at all. I said which part I believe to be unethical. That was not the part you said when you were speaking for me. Maybe you should re-read everything I said again before assuming you know my actual stance on all of this.
    Truthfully, Simon - I was representing your words exactly as you said them. I 'never said' or 'even implied' than you believed unlocking itself to be the unethical part. I was referring to the employee or GSX service providers actual acquisition and subsequent selling of the IMEI blocks to unlock providers as being unethical and said 'Even Simon agrees with me on that point'... I even was careful to say 'on that point'. These debates can get confusing enough without people being fast and loose with the quotes. You are in full agreement with me about the unethical part of the 'obtaining' the IMEI blocks. I won't put words in your mouth after that - but for me.. That's clearly the AT&T employees and GSX service providers being the 'selling customers' in the pawn shop analogy.

    Really - I did not mischaracterize your actual position. I re-stated it exactly as you had. Please re-read that post(s).

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  3. #742
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    Truthfully, Simon - I was representing your words exactly as you said them. I 'never said' or 'even implied' than you believed unlocking itself to be the unethical part. I was referring to the employee or GSX service providers actual acquisition and subsequent selling of the IMEI blocks to unlock providers as being unethical and said 'Even Simon agrees with me on that point'... I even was careful to say 'on that point'. These debates can get confusing enough without people being fast and loose with the quotes. You are in full agreement with me about the unethical part of the 'obtaining' the IMEI blocks. I won't put words in your mouth after that - but for me.. That's clearly the AT&T employees and GSX service providers being the 'selling customers' in the pawn shop analogy.

    Really - I did not mischaracterize your actual position. I re-stated it exactly as you had. Please re-read that post(s).

    Looks like I just misunderstood you on that part. My bad. I thought you were referring to people selling their phones for a profit after getting them unlocked, which I don't agree with you on. If you meant the Att employee selling the access outside of their job description then yes, that is the one and only part of this I believe to be unethical. That being said I still think it is justified them doing it since I believe Att should be doing it themselves.

  4. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    Now please deconstruct my analogy of the pawn shop - if you can.
    First I want to applaud you for actually being able to answer a question some what directly. Even though I disagree with you. You looking at unlocking as only a finical benefit. For reselling purposes. Which isn't true. You call jailbreaking ethical because it benefits you and and thats really the only stance you have had behind it ignore T&C's is like ignore the law. And like I said Id bet pretty good money you have done a warranty exchange on at least 1 device after it has been jailbroken. You are stealing from Apple when you do that. You have a high possibility of stealing from At&t as well because you can download apps like My3G and others that loophole At&t's data plan.

    Now to get to the part about the pawnshop. When lets say you take a bike into a pawnshop its the pawnshop owners responsibly to find out if the bike was stolen or not. If they take in stolen property the police can come in and get the bike repo from them and be out how ever much they paid for it. They take on a huge risk because they are dealing in stolen goods.
    Unlockers like my self aren't breaking the law, we are providing an intangible service not dealing in physical/digital goods. There has been tons of methods through out the years from software to hardware unlocks. Phones not just able iPhones have been getting unlocked for years through 3rd parties and using different method. You say I am stilling from At&t and or Apple but you can't actually put that on me because you don't know what methods I am using at any given time. There is a lot of back end stuff that you don't know about and googling won't find you an answer there are some secrets that few know and don't care to share with the public. A lot like Jailbreaking we all know there is some code involved and honestly the end user us don't really care we just know it works and we enjoy modifying are device. Which some say jailbreaking can give you finical gain when selling it.

    Your basing your feelings and ethics and morals and what ever you want to call it on assumption and what you have researched. But if you research involves google searches, and talking to low level resellers then you will be miss informed. This isn't something that I just did over night. In fact I am pretty sure I said in a recent post that I don't want to put anyones job/lively hood at risk with unlocks. I rather not do them then see someone loose their job and possibly go to jail. My morals won't allow it (think those are pretty good morals if I say so myself) When everyones unlocks stopped working on Oct 6th I was one of the few still up and running because I wasn't using the GSX method.

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  6. #744
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    That being said I still think it is justified them doing it since I believe Att should be doing it themselves.
    So you believe a good alternative would be for AT&T themselves to sell in-contract "unlocks" for a fee to the end user? Hmmm. Interesting idea. I believe they'd just say.. Pay the release of contract fee..

    But very good idea, Simon. You missed your calling. You should be a CEO..

  7. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    So you believe a good alternative would be for AT&T themselves to sell in-contract "unlocks" for a fee to the end user? Hmmm. Interesting idea. I believe they'd just say.. Pay the release of contract fee..

    But very good idea, Simon. You missed your calling. You should be a CEO..
    He is

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  9. #746
    after jailbreak iphone 3gs iso 6.1.3 facebook notifications are not showing on notification centar and lock screen pless help me....

  10. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    First I want to applaud you for actually being able to answer a question some what directly. Even though I disagree with you. You looking at unlocking as only a finical benefit. For reselling purposes. Which isn't true. You call jailbreaking ethical because it benefits you and and thats really the only stance you have had behind it ignore T&C's is like ignore the law. And like I said Id bet pretty good money you have done a warranty exchange on at least 1 device after it has been jailbroken. You are stealing from Apple when you do that. You have a high possibility of stealing from At&t as well because you can download apps like My3G and others that loophole At&t's data plan.
    You're doing a fancy 2-step there, Cowboy, not following a T&C is NOT against the law in any legal precedent ever made. It only allows the company to deny you a service if you break the T&C.. It is in NO may unethical or illegal in any definition you can find. If it states 'breaks US law' - then yes.. Like jailbreaking an iPad is now illegal. But not iPhones (yet).. And no I have never ever returned a phone after jailbreaking - ever. I don't do unethical things - like buy a piece of clothing and then return after I've used it.. This is common with many women moreso than men.. So you're just flat wrong there - about ME.. I know MANy who've done what you describe. So please don't try and 'pull me down to such a level' to make your point. I don't do that type of unethical behavior because I couldn't look myself in the mirror and be okay with what I saw. Believe it or not, Cowboy - there are still some people with morals in our declining country.
    Now to get to the part about the pawnshop. When lets say you take a bike into a pawnshop its the pawnshop owners responsibly to find out if the bike was stolen or not. If they take in stolen property the police can come in and get the bike repo from them and be out how ever much they paid for it. They take on a huge risk because they are dealing in stolen goods.
    Unlockers like my self aren't breaking the law, we are providing an intangible service not dealing in physical/digital goods. There has been tons of methods through out the years from software to hardware unlocks. Phones not just able iPhones have been getting unlocked for years through 3rd parties and using different method. You say I am stilling from At&t and or Apple but you can't actually put that on me because you don't know what methods I am using at any given time. There is a lot of back end stuff that you don't know about and googling won't find you an answer there are some secrets that few know and don't care to share with the public. A lot like Jailbreaking we all know there is some code involved and honestly the end user us don't really care we just know it works and we enjoy modifying are device. Which some say jailbreaking can give you finical gain when selling it.
    Lots and lots of double-talk in that paragraph. Not a cogent logical argument at all... but I tire of the topic and no matter what I say you will not see any other view than one that allows you to be okay with yourself still being in your business. And since you don't know HOW versed I am in ALL the methods to do unlocks you can't really speak to what I know and don't. But for the record.. I group the people who sell Gevey SIMs and all those other methods in the same category - almost.. But the most egregious unethical ones are the IMEI block sellers within AT&T and the GSX providers doing the same. Your attempt at dismantling my pawn shop analogy is very weak and not even coherent. A Pawn Shop is almost a perfect analogy for what you do in your business - but YOU don't even CARE whether the product you get is 'stolen or not'.. My whole point - is you simply deem in NOT stolen -- and go about your business. When the IMEI blocks are clearly stolen. No way around that logically. And even if you were to be using 'other less shady sources' for your unlocks - what % of the 'other methods' make up your main profits?? I wonder..

    Your basing your feelings and ethics and morals and what ever you want to call it on assumption and what you have researched. But if you research involves google searches, and talking to low level resellers then you will be miss informed.
    That's a big assumption on your part. Google is not my source. I have friends 'on the inside' as YOu were an insider working for AT&T.
    This isn't something that I just did over night.
    Neither have I. From the moment Simon and BlkCadi taught me about unlocks almost 2 years ago now.. I saw the profit potential for a side business. For almost a year I did research and talked to many people on the inside of the unlock world who WERE willing to share with me 'the real deal'. But my research bore out more and more 'unethical' practice than 'ethical' practice and I finally decided that instead of going into the business, as much as I could have made thousands doing it, decided I would be a sort of 'whistle blower' on the public forums as to the unethical aspects of this business you can make a sizable income from.

    In fact I am pretty sure I said in a recent post that I don't want to put anyones job/lively hood at risk with unlocks. I rather not do them then see someone loose their job and possibly go to jail. My morals won't allow it (think those are pretty good morals if I say so myself)
    I'm relieved to hear this.
    When everyones unlocks stopped working on Oct 6th I was one of the few still up and running because I wasn't using the GSX method.
    Good for you. You seem like a person of good character in your dealings with your clients. To have a public forum thread for your clients I'm sure is a big hassle. But it shows you want to serve them well. I would strongly urge you, in the name of good ethics, to find the most ethical sources for the unlocks you resell to the public. There can be no doubt that AT&T employee wholesalers of IMEI blocks and GSX providers are unethical sources. And sadly, they constitute 95% of the places unlock resellers get their wholesale IMEI blocks from.

    I won't 'rat out' the other unlock sources 'we' have access to (those of us who can get unlocks wholesale) - because I believe in capitalism and your right to make a good living and make a profit. But I urge you to stick to ethical wholesalers...

    Appreciate the banter, Cowboy. Have a great day..
    Grant

  11. #748
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    So you believe a good alternative would be for AT&T themselves to sell in-contract "unlocks" for a fee to the end user? Hmmm. Interesting idea. I believe they'd just say.. Pay the release of contract fee..

    But very good idea, Simon. You missed your calling. You should be a CEO..
    No, I think Att should unlock all Att iPhones that are out of contract, regardless of if the current owner is or was an Att customer and regardless of if that phone was ever activated on Att. Not doing so is just spiteful on their part, they are losing nothing by doing it and gaining nothing by not doing it.
    As for in contract phones I think they should take a more verizon minded approach, 3 months or so of an account being in good standing and they should unlock that phone for their customer, show a little appreciation for their loyalty. The customer is happy as now they can use any sim when traveling and Att is happy because they have a loyal customer who will not default on paying out their contract or want to go to a different carrier with better policies.
    Atts current policy for unlocking their phones is just atrocious IMO, granted much better than their original policy of not unlocking them at all for any reason but still not great.


    Oh and btw, I am a CEO. Granted it is just of my small business that I have (5 employees counting myself) but on all our legal papers that is my official title

    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    You're doing a fancy 2-step there, Cowboy, not following a T&C is NOT against the law in any legal precedent ever made. It only allows the company to deny you a service if you break the T&C.. It is in NO may unethical or illegal in any definition you can find. If it states 'breaks US law' - then yes.. Like jailbreaking an iPad is now illegal. But not iPhones (yet).. And no I have never ever returned a phone after jailbreaking - ever. I don't do unethical things - like buy a piece of clothing and then return after I've used it.. This is common with many women moreso than men.. So you're just flat wrong there - about ME.. I know MANy who've done what you describe. So please don't try and 'pull me down to such a level' to make your point. I don't do that type of unethical behavior because I couldn't look myself in the mirror and be okay with what I saw. Believe it or not, Cowboy - there are still some people with morals in our declining country.
    So you think what the ATT employees that are doing this are doing something illegal?

  12. #749
    Would love to see chronic turn up in here lol
    Click My Sig For my auros Mods

  13. #750
    I am on my phone now so don't really feel like typing out this huge thing to argue back. But I can almost promise you the people you get your information from know very little to what actually goes on.
    As for being an insider to Att. No not at all the people with the information and power are a very select few. And few that are doing the unlocks so the odds of you actually talking to one of them I find extremely thin. So I am calling BS on that.
    The fact you generalize what you want to generalize and not astounds me.
    Don't say I am two stepping when your the one doing the dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by GUNNY29 View Post
    Would love to see chronic turn up in here lol
    Why?
    Last edited by Cowboy; 10-26-2013 at 01:28 PM.

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  15. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowboy View Post
    I am on my phone now so don't really feel like typing out this huge thing to argue back. But I can almost promise you the people you get your information from know very little to what actually goes on.
    As for being an insider to Att. No not at all the people with the information and power are a very select few. And few that are doing the unlocks so the odds of you actually talking to one of them I find extremely thin. So I am calling BS on that.
    The fact you generalize what you want to generalize and not astounds me.
    Don't say I am two stepping when your the one doing the dance.
    Cowboy.. You're right.. The actual circle is small. But don't for a minute test me on this.. If you want me to broadcast names - I can. Well one name. Keep in mind - the "unlock dealers" like you and many others have access to the same "inner circle" names you do - since they are the whole sellers to you the re-seller.. My two people I consulted with the most were guys like you that I was going to be a 3rd guy in line for.. Cut too much into my profit potential.. But one guy was "very open" with supplier names . But you know.. I didn't need to know inner circle names to come to the conclusions I have.

    Just as long as you don't evade the issue of the stealing from AT&T & Apple that the employees do and the GSX suppliers do - we're good, Cowboy.

  16. #752
    This is like an old law that needs to be taken off the books. It is really a victimless crime. AT&T screws its customers and in return they screw AT&T back. Cycle of business bro. Get over it. Ethics really doesn't apply here, neither does the Robin hood analogy. I suppose you would rather the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Not me!

    If you can put it to the man, you go Cowboy!

    YeeHaw!
    Warcraft!

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  18. #753
    You have me so utterly confused
    I posted in the other thread before everything got moved that the methods I use are legal and I don't want anyone losing there lively hood over an unlock. You brought moral and ethics into play. You assumed that I was using an "unethical" method in your eyes and every unlocker out there. With out the knowing of how I am doing it. You yet question my morals and ethics for the last few days tell me that I am wrong.
    But yet we are good?
    Bro we are far from it.
    You think your educating people about this crap, but what your doing is bringing down the community your doing way more harm then good. It's like being up piracy because the words jailbreak were in a subject title and someone was asking about what jailbreaking was.

    I still have a hard time believing you know anyone. Because you have to develop a lot of trust and relationship with multiple people before getting to the level that the few of us are at. It doesn't happen over night.
    You yet bring up that you know them by name and will gladly broadcast their names here. I am sure they wouldn't want that and morally I don't see how you could even offer such a thing...
    How could you seriously???

    But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say ok we know the same people. Lol


    I am going to end this with you need to think before deciding to post and "educating" life experiences doesn't make for good education. "I did drugs once this is how I did it and I am not hooked or even dead. So if your going to do it, do it this way." Great life experience why don't we all try it and see what happens to the majority.

    Maybe a pm asking if I am using the methods you think you know and see if I was using them.
    All you did was go into a thread assuming starting a big a55 argument on something you clearly know little about it you wouldn't of brought it up in the first place.

    I am done with this topic for now.
    See you around the forums.
    Last edited by Cowboy; 10-26-2013 at 05:19 PM.

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  20. #754
    So who has the cheapest unlocks for AT&T iPhone 5? Lol

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  22. #755
    Livin the iPhone Life Krima's Avatar
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    God I love this thread. I have a Masters, working on my doctorate, in Grantology. So, Cowboy if you need any help in understanding this subject, my services are yours.

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  24. #756
    Super Duper Moderator blkcadi's Avatar
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    This is what this latest rant reminds me of. Just sayin', yeah, all 10 hours of it...


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  26. #757
    Cowboy, I did start in your thread by questioning the entire unlock process' ethical nature. I do so from 2 years of in depth study with insiders.

    But along the way I did focus occasionally on "your ethics".. The information I've collected does not tell of any "other methods" of obtaining the IMEI blocks that any fair minded individual could call ethical. BUT, BUT -- you say that YOU have ways to do it without reselling stolen property from AT&T or Apple.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say thank you - for pursuing ethical means. If I knew your methods I don't know if we would agree on their ethics - but I'm gonna extend a hand to you.. and accept you at your word.

    But please in your travels with fellow unlockers.. Make them do the right thing and stop buying from the AT&T emotes and GSX providers.

    Thanks for the banter,
    Grant

  27. #758
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    You do a lot of in depth studying on so many different things Grant. You must have a really understanding and patient wife, just doesn't seem there's enough time in the day to research all the stuff you speak so eloquently and confidently on. Maybe that's why you never cite any real sources or documents, just so busy reading up on everything it must just slip your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by blkcadi View Post
    This is what this latest rant reminds me of. Just sayin', yeah, all 10 hours of it...

    Why would you do such a thing? Don't you know I have a condition where I have to finish everything I start? Dammit, there goes my night. Sing on little lamb, sing on.

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  29. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    You do a lot of in depth studying on so many different things Grant. You must have a really understanding and patient wife, just doesn't seem there's enough time in the day to research all the stuff you speak so eloquently and confidently on. Maybe that's why you never cite any real sources or documents, just so busy reading up on everything it must just slip your mind.
    I actually am a little obsessed on anything I get into. You've all noticed that behavior in me - townships, etc.. I'm fortunate to have a job where I'm the boss and have a lot of free time. So yes I'm a voracious student of many things.

    And you know, Simon, there aren't "sources" for everything -not even in the Internet age. A lot of what I study is in books that aren't published on Internet - yet. Wikipedia is pretty good - but even you and I can update Wiki. I'm always wary of their sourcing.

    And on this recent debate - it wouldn't be "right" to reveal insiders ( sources ) as Cowboy said. I paid some people a "little" to get a peek "inside".

    As for my wife - she's as into her world as I am in mine.. We spend loads of time apart in our worlds and we're good! Just celebrated 30 years of marriage.. That's rare these days.. .. But thanks for being concerned for my marriage, Simon..

  30. #760
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    I actually am a little obsessed on anything I get into. You've all noticed that behavior in me - townships, etc.. I'm fortunate to have a job where I'm the boss and have a lot of free time. So yes I'm a voracious student of many things.

    And you know, Simon, there aren't "sources" for everything -not even in the Internet age. A lot of what I study is in books that aren't published on Internet - yet. Wikipedia is pretty good - but even you and I can update Wiki. I'm always wary of their sourcing.

    And on this recent debate - it wouldn't be "right" to reveal insiders ( sources ) as Cowboy said. I paid some people a "little" to get a peek "inside".

    As for my wife - she's as into her world as I am in mine.. We spend loads of time apart in our worlds and we're good! Just celebrated 30 years of marriage.. That's rare these days.. .. But thanks for being concerned for my marriage, Simon..
    Oh I agree, with regard to these sources you speak of here best not to bring them out into the open over a simple debate. Wouldn't of hurt to throw some ATT contracts or policy pages out there to back up some of the stuff you were referring to for roaming and contracts etc. Doesn't matter now though, not gonna beat a dead horse. You believe what you believe as do I. I'm fine with that. I just don't think I have ever seen you site a source or link to a page to support your arguments. Correct me if I'm wrong, that will require you doing some research and linking to some proof though. Up for the challenge? lol

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