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Thread: The Great Debate

  1. #641
    Now I know Simon.. He is 'feverishly' looking over at IPF for some 'real comparison' data he can use to sharpen his argument.. LOL!!

    If he can prove that between 2010-2011's jailbreak period and/or 2011-2012's that MMI's jailbreak thread count was far superior - I will concede..

    But what Simon's also not telling you is that I'd already admitted that being a guest here at MMI during that time I didn't have access to all MMI had. In Google searches the top 20 results to any question I had about jailbreaking pointed to IPF and not MMI. Again - hardly conclusive data... which is why 'indisputable' was an 'overreach'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    Of course others can be wrong but you don't need to deflect like that. It doesn't matter if others are wrong because we aren't talking about others, we are talking about you.

    You see that, right? If you are wrong in a situation it doesn't matter if someone at some point was also wrong. The only thing that is relevant is the present situation. Not rocket science.
    You're ignoring how things 'get started' around here, Krima. Your bent toward 'teaching me something' has you give others, that are your 'homies' "passes" on bad behavior. You do this all the time and it's what stresses our relationship. "I" am ALWAYS the 'attack-ee'... THAT's "indisputable", bro. It's just fact. Look through every 'debate thread' with Grant - and you'll find that its starts AFTER I 'respond' to a snubb or attack or patronizing vibe toward me. It's true 100% of the times. Simon's the best 'thread finder' out there. If he were to research this - he would be able to prove my point. Every 'FIRST' annoying post by Grant is in RESPONSE to someone casting aspersion TOWARD me.. My 'annoying behaviour' will stop when others 'impolite' behavior stops TOWARD me 'first'..
    Last edited by NewdestinyX; 09-05-2013 at 10:19 AM.
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  2. #642
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    My use of the the term 'indisputable' was over-reaching - in true "Grant" style..

    But Simon's presentation of the facts was hardly proof.. LOL!! IPF has almost NO theme threads. MMI is MOSTLY Theme threads. Comparing TOTAL thread counts/members is a laughable comparison. Simon, you're more intelligent than that, bro.. My comment was about 'jailbreak' threads alone.. Unless Simon can find a stat for that - he has no evidence to support his 'dispute' AND neither do I. But I couldn't find any data here that answered my questions in those days.. It's anecdotal - agreed.
    Only thing that proves is that you didn't look very well.

    I could probably get stats for those sections during that time period from Kyle if I felt this was important enough to bug him about it (which I don't). I could definitely get eye witness statements backing up my claims from the moderators here. Specifically Blkcadi, cowboy, iannie, yeow, 2k1 and cer0 just to name a few. That period of time is when myself, Annie, yeow, cowboy and 2k1 were extremely active and helpful in those sections. I racked up a very high percentage of my 40k posts in the jailbreak section during that time period, trust me when I say there were a LOT of help threads then. I could rack up 50 posts in a day without breaking a sweat by just helping people in those sections.

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  4. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    My 'annoying behaviour' will stop when others 'impolite' behavior stops TOWARD me 'first'..
    But that's the thing, it won't stop. You will always find someway to take something personal. Just look at your conversation with Durben. He is not a confrontational person and that's why he didn't attack you but someone else felt like they should speak up. You are the only person that compels other people, that are normally quite, to speak up. You share in that responsibility.

    Stop being a victim, it's childish and unbecoming of an adult. These "attack" as you call them will stop when you stop. Take control and change this.

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  6. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Only thing that proves is that you didn't look very well.

    I could probably get stats for those sections during that time period from Kyle if I felt this was important enough to bug him about it (which I don't). I could definitely get eye witness statements backing up my claims from the moderators here. Specifically Blkcadi, cowboy, iannie, yeow, 2k1 and cer0 just to name a few. That period of time is when myself, Annie, yeow, cowboy and 2k1 were extremely active and helpful in those sections. I racked up a very high percentage of my 40k posts in the jailbreak section during that time period, trust me when I say there were a LOT of help threads then. I could rack up 50 posts in a day without breaking a sweat by just helping people in those sections.
    As I told you moons ago on this old dead topic.. we pretty much agree, Simon. This place is amazing.. I wish I'd joined sooner.. MMI had a very poor position in Google searches in those days. Really, man.. MMI wasn't even a 'player' in the Google search hits unless you were searching for Theme stuff, which, in a search OF COURSE, came up MOSTLY MMI hits.. WHICH is HOW I found this place to begin with.. When AFTER I got jailbroken (with IPF's help) I wanted to THEME (with MMI's help).. All of us want the quickest answers to their question about a topic - and do SIMPLE Google searches. Sorry bro, in the period of time when you entered the word 'Jailbreak' in a simple "I'M FEELING LUCKY" Google search - MMI posts weren't even on the first two pages of results. WHY? Don't know. But it's true.
    Here to help if I can. If I can't I know someone who can!

  7. #645
    What does Google searches have to do with you saying that another's site had more traffic and that this was indisputable?

    You really can't say it huh?

    I love this thread by the way. The only place I don't feel guilty about discussing these sort if things.

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  9. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    But that's the thing, it won't stop. You will always find someway to take something personal. Just look at your conversation with Durben. He is not a confrontational person and that's why he didn't attack you but someone else felt like they should speak up. You are the only person that compels other people, that are normally quite, to speak up. You share in that responsibility.

    Stop being a victim, it's childish and unbecoming of an adult. These "attack" as you call them will stop when you stop. Take control and change this.
    Krima... dear, Krima.. I will 'never' stop addressing patronizing, elitist behavior when I see it. It's not 'collegial'. Durben and I have an understanding and have been simpatico for MANY, MANY months. He's one of my best teachers about code and always answers my PM's.. but when he undertook the WW project it was his and King's personal baby.. I get that.. But like so many of 'us artists' - we get 'sensitive' about criticism (even constructive) about 'our' work.. as if someone is criticizing out child.. All of my questions and challenges in the early days about how close to Native we wanted to base our Weather Widgets was all good important challenge.. it shaped the final design of WW (whether you want to believe it or not). I have the posts to prove that Constant Mode was NOT part of the original design elements. But when I ask and challenge - I think King and D sometimes took it personal. I understand. My questions are reasonable and shouldn't provoke the ire it does.

    Somewhere - my 'tone' is being misunderstood. I have no desire to be a 'stroke the ego' type of people I admire - and yet I thank them all the time. Count the amount of YAHOO FOR WW posts I've made in that thread.. I am VERY encouraging.. But when I have a few observations I get called a 'bore' and 'repetitive'.. even by a guy I admire like D. His reactions to me and King's in the beginning seemed more like those of 'hurt feelings'. And they WERE attacks (mini) on me.. And unwarranted.

    I'm tired again.... Once again I offer you the last word (unless it's an attack or present inaccurate/distorted data).

    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    What does Google searches have to do with you saying that another's site had more traffic and that this was indisputable?
    In the red - is a WORD "intentions" TWIST, Krima. I didn't say that.. This is what people do to me all the time. And ranking of Google hits does speak to whether the data people want is more readily available. That would also translate to 'more traffic'/'more data' etc.. But i'm not gonna let you bait me into a semantics arguments.

    I love this thread by the way. The only place I don't feel guilty about discussing these sort if things.
    What you MORE love is being Ahab chasing his whale. You really can't admit it, can you, K? When I am 'actually' wrong, on facts, I will always admit it. Hundreds of posts of mine have admissions of errors. You discount them - for some reason.. Well the reason seems clear to me.. But I choose to think of you as my annoying little nephew that 'means well'.. And I am your goofy know-it-all uncle that drives you crazy... LOL!!!! What a pair we make..
    Last edited by NewdestinyX; 09-05-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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  10. #647
    Grant, I told you and King has told you that you in NO WAY shaped the weather widget tweak. The mere fact that you believe this is why SO many people get frustrated with you. Please listen, YOU DID NOT SHAPE THE TWEAK IN ANY WAY. Saying it doesn't make it true and you dismissed my comment and said you would only believe it if King said it.

    So what happened next? King came in and told you that you didn't shape the tweak in any way. Now you said you would believe it if he said it and he did and now you are repeating that you helped shaped the tweak. You are not a man of your word and I'm sorry that I just learned that you are not an honest person.

    I would like to see those posts Grant that proves that Constant Mode wasn't part of the original design and that shaped the tweak. Don't just talk out of your azz, for once provide data to support your statement. If not, I will conclude that you have no proof and are in fact wrong.
    Last edited by Krima; 09-05-2013 at 10:51 AM.

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  12. #648
    Just to clarify:

    It was the intent from the very first emails with Stephen to basically merge MyLocation with Native weather to produce the perfect weather data obtaining vehicle that we could. In case you didn't notice, I am probably the biggest supporter of MyLocation with almost 10,000 downloads of it from my repo alone.

    Now why would I not ask for this functionality in the new tweak that I wanted. If that we're the case, then Native weather was just fine as is.

    Check out WW2 for iOS 8 - Widget-Weather 2.0

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  14. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    But that's the thing, it won't stop. You will always find someway to take something personal.
    I don't TAKE things 'personal', K.. They 'are' personal. In communications training you learn that you're both 100% responsible for you ACTUALLY SAY and WHAT PEOPLE "FEEL" YOU TO BE SAYING.
    When a communication is taken wrong - that responsibility is NOT on the receiver - but on the GIVER. The best communicators are people that know their audience, an audience of '1' or many. By that same token -- i DO admit that "I", my written words, ARE indeed taken wrong sometimes because of MY delivery. I have no problem admitting that. Whether or not I'm willing to change my style is another issue - or whether I even need to.

    From day 1 of my arrival I have been swimming upstream to be even accepted into this community on the basis of my professional skills sets. And yet, apart from the "most popular theme of the day" threads, mostly in the technical threads I've been able to amass over 4K thanks. I guess I'm meeting a need somewhere... But when it comes to the veterans (except Ian, Dacal, MJ, for the most part King and until recently, D), I get LOADS of grief and patronizing rhetoric, almost as if I'm a threat to them.... It's like being back in High School all over again sometimes.. Uggh... CLiques and breaking into groups and proving yourself.. Oy.... It's so exhausting... I

    Ian's a great example of how people could 'deal' with my 'Not always right, but always confident' personality style. Ian will always make a light joke about my 'pedantic' long winded replies or warn me - "there you go - you're gonna confuse someone"..... BUT then he always helps with the issue and FINDS a way to encourage my input. On only one occasion can I remember pushing his buttons to the point of him 'losin' it.. But even then he never 'attacked me' with condescension and patronization like you and other vets do regularly. MamaJaay also, who is KNOWN to speak into NONSENSE.. acknowledges my helpfulness and is always kind.

    I can only hope to one day be as helpful and D and King to others. They know so much more than I do.. But even King no longer 'regularly' attacks me and acknowledges the value I can offer. They've ALL successfully built a filter for my 'SOMEtimes annoying' style. You and others need to as well... Don't correct me - or try to change me. I'm 51, K... I'm not changing.. DESPITE my communication style I'm considered helpful by the stats and by a lot of PM's I get.. But that's a weaker argument since I can't prove it.

    Okay -- have to go to work now..

    Quote Originally Posted by King_O_Hill View Post
    Just to clarify:

    It was the intent from the very first emails with Stephen to basically merge MyLocation with Native weather to produce the perfect weather data obtaining vehicle that we could. In case you didn't notice, I am probably the biggest supporter of MyLocation with almost 10,000 downloads of it from my repo.

    Now why would I not ask for this functionality in the new tweak that I wanted. If that we're the case, then Native weather was just fine as is.
    Fair enough, King.. But there are scores and scores of early posts in the iWidget thread.. where D is pushing back on the idea of needing anything to auto update. He was fine with entering the NC with a swipe. I screamed bloody murder for a month or more.. In the early days there was no talk of a Constant Mode. And frankly it's been a little 'under my skin' that PUSHING for a Constant Mode isn't a 'little credited' to me. Not the design itself of course - but as a catalyst for the 'necessity of it' for a successful tweak to replace myLocation. I will accept you at your word that you always had the idea - but the early posts in the iWidget thread tell a very clear tale that a Constant mode needed to be 'pushed through' into reality.. Maybe I could at least just get the credit for being an IRRITANT that 'confirmed the need' for Constant Mode.. LOL!!! You and I are totally cool. You give respect where it's due and it's appreciated. You are the most helpful person on the themes forums only equaled by Derrick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    Grant, I told you and King has told you that you in NO WAY shaped the weather widget tweak. The mere fact that you believe this is why SO many people get frustrated with you. Please listen, YOU DID NOT SHAPE THE TWEAK IN ANY WAY. Saying it doesn't make it true and you dismissed my comment and said you would only believe it if King said it.

    So what happened next? King came in and told you that you didn't shape the tweak in any way. Now you said you would believe it if he said it and he did and now you are repeating that you helped shaped the tweak. You are not a man of your word and I'm sorry that I just learned that you are not an honest person.

    I would like to see those posts Grant that proves that Constant Mode wasn't part of the original design and that shaped the tweak. Don't just talk out of your azz, for once provide data to support your statement. If not, I will conclude that you have no proof and are in fact wrong.
    See above, Krima. The iWidgets thread tells the whole tale. It's very clear evidence of my points. A Constant Mode being in the 'final design' was 'pushed for'. I'm totally okay with the idea that I didn't 'invent' the idea. But Durben said on many occasions - he didn't think it was needed. It had to be pushed for. I pushed. That's a fact, Krima - all there in black and white in the iWidget thread. I won't do your homework for you. Just go reread. But no one would want to give me 'any' credit of any kind - because they fear the 'monster' it might create... So silly...

    But DON'T TWIST MY WORDS.. Credit for the AMAZING WW tweak at every design phase belong to KING, DURBEN and STEPHEN.. I am a humble user.. But there was a time when a Constant Mode was 'in question' and not seen as a needed element in the final.. and from what King said.. its implementation took the longest time to get close to right. We're still having trouble with it sadly..
    Last edited by NewdestinyX; 09-05-2013 at 11:09 AM.
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  15. #650
    What I took away from that long post is that it is because others like Ian, that don't get sucked in is why you feel like you are taken well. You deflect responsibility and put the burden on others. It takes a special person like Ian to be so cordial with you but do you want to know how I interpret that.

    Ian is so nice and polite to everyone that you have managed to push his buttons and bait him into almost getting down to my level. Do you really not see that the mere fact that you have pushed Ian to make remarks is a HUGE signal in how irritating your posts can come across. I am again surprised that you do not see that even Ian ,and Durben for that matter, have gotten frustrated with you. Do you really not see that this means that you have a problem in how you communicate your thoughts. Even in mentioning, again, your communication skills you are so condescending.

    I guess I'm just different in the sense that if I am acting a certain way and many people have an issue with me based on those actions, I begin to analyze my behavior and start taking responsibility. I never think to start blaming everyone else for the way I'm taken. This is what's called having an internal locus of control Grant. You have an external locus of control. Look these terms up because they really do sum up the main difference between you and I.

    Have a good day at work, my annoying Uncle.
    Last edited by Krima; 09-05-2013 at 11:24 AM.

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  17. #651
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    modmyi came up all the time and still does in searches I do for jailbreak relates things. Would you like me to do a few "let me google that for you" searches to prove it? I bet you if I do iphoneforums does not come up at all.

    Just a few random ones off the top of my head

    Let me google that for you MMi comes up on page 2. No sign of iphoneforums anywhere.
    Let me google that for you again MMi page 2. No sign of iphoneforums anywhere.
    Let me google that for you MMi number 1, woohoo lol (I did this search just the other day for myself). No sign of iphoneforums anywhere.
    Let me google that for you MMi on first page. No sign of iphoneforums anywhere.

    Should I keep going?

  18. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    Krima... dear, Krima.. I will 'never' stop addressing patronizing, elitist behavior when I see it. It's not 'collegial'. Durben and I have an understanding and have been simpatico for MANY, MANY months. He's one of my best teachers about code and always answers my PM's.. but when he undertook the WW project it was his and King's personal baby.. I get that.. But like so many of 'us artists' - we get 'sensitive' about criticism (even constructive) about 'our' work.. as if someone is criticizing out child.. All of my questions and challenges in the early days about how close to Native we wanted to base our Weather Widgets was all good important challenge.. it shaped the final design of WW (whether you want to believe it or not). I have the posts to prove that Constant Mode was NOT part of the original design elements. But when I ask and challenge - I think King and D sometimes took it personal. I understand. My questions are reasonable and shouldn't provoke the ire it does.
    Show me a post prior to the date on my email to Stephen in this pic that suggests you were the one that got us to have Widget Weather update in the background.



    Sorry Grant but you're way off that dude.
    This was always the intention of what I asked Stephen.
    It just took us some steps to get there.

    I was not pushing back on the idea at all on your "early posts"
    I was just overstating the fact that we could update by opening the app to get a new city.
    The point of saying it was alright was more to get a rise out of you than anything else.
    We were already working on the updating options at the time.
    There was just no point to explain the same thing over and over to you.
    Last edited by The_Durben; 09-05-2013 at 11:50 AM.

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  20. #653
    Am I still tagged in? Yeah Good.

    BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah.

    (NewD would only twist it anyway)

    He wants credit!! LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
    Click My Sig For my auros Mods

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  22. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Durben View Post
    Show me a post prior to the date on my email to Stephen in this pic that suggests you were the one that got us to have Widget Weather update in the background.



    Sorry Grant but you're way off that dude.
    This was always the intention of what I asked Stephen.
    It just took us some steps to get there.
    I believe you, Derrick, of course. You're always thinking about the best stuff. But the posts in iWidgets all around that time period had you pushing back pretty hard on me for the need for it. You said, for you, it just wouldn't be necessary. Since you were a co-designer of the concept you could have influenced the project away from including constant. So I started my campaign. I'm glad to hear you didn't need anyone pushing for it in the end. Not quite sure why you kept pushing back on me in those days saying for "most" people entering NC Settings would be enough. You even said "I would never use it". So I pushed. If you say "We didn't need any 'pushing' to include it, Grant".. I will drop the issue forever, D. Promise. But please be honest.. and not give into "Grant needs to be put in his place" mode which Krima lives in..

    Thanks for that email. I stand corrected as to timing of the idea of a Constant Mode. Yours and King's input to the iWidgets thread led me to believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Durben View Post
    The point of saying it (NC swipe only) was alright was more to get a rise out of you than anything else. .
    And how's that workin' out for ya, bro? .. Could I ask that you NOT do that.. It doesn't promote collegiality - OR Grant shutting up..
    Last edited by NewdestinyX; 09-05-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  23. #655
    Well there you have it Grant. Indisputable proof, now it's appropriate to use this word, that you in no way shaped the tweak.

    Will you now please stop saying you shaped it and deserve some credit. I hope now you can finally admit it.

    Grant did you look up those terms? You just said "Yours and King's input to the iWidgets thread led me to believe otherwise". External locus of control.
    Last edited by Krima; 09-05-2013 at 12:04 PM.

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  25. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by NewdestinyX View Post
    I believe you, Derrick, of course. You're always thinking about the best stuff. But the posts in iWidgets all around that time period had you pushing back pretty hard on me for the need for it. You said, for you, it just wouldn't be necessary. Since you were a co-designer of the concept you could have influenced the project away from including constant. So I started my campaign. I'm glad to hear you didn't need anyone pushing for it in the end. Not quite sure why you kept pushing back on me in those days saying for "most" people entering NC Settings would be enough. You even said "I would never use it". So I pushed. If you say "We didn't need any 'pushing' to include it, Grant".. I will drop the issue forever, D. Promise. But please be honest.. and not give into "Grant needs to be put in his place" mode which Krima lives in..

    Thanks for that email. I stand corrected as to timing of the idea of a Constant Mode. Yours and King's input to the iWidgets thread led me to believe otherwise.

    And how's that workin' out for ya, bro? .. Could I ask that you NOT do that.. It doesn't promote collegiality - OR Grant shutting up..
    I had asked for the same functionality as my location but for the weather app.
    Me saying if it would only update the city when you opened the app I could deal with was more in line to "if we could not get the city to auto update in its own"
    I would have still used the tweak. Doesn't mean I wasn't trying to get it to do it on its own.

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  27. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Durben View Post
    I had asked for the same functionality as my location but for the weather app.
    Me saying if it would only update the city when you opened the app I could deal with was more in line to "if we could not get the city to auto update in its own"
    I would have still used the tweak. Doesn't mean I wasn't trying to get it to do it on its own.
    Okay. That's clear and matches my memory of your input. The ""if we could not get the city to auto update in its own"" was that part I tried to 'irritate' against the notion of. That wouldn't have been acceptable to most of us. Sorry if the 'irritant' of that input made you want to 'get a rise' out of me. Ironic though - that we're having auto-updating issues even after all of that talk.. But you're working with an amazing dev and it'll get worked out. Still the most useful tweak I've ever used. Thanks again for "thinking of everything".

    Quote Originally Posted by Krima View Post
    Well there you have it Grant. Indisputable proof, now it's appropriate to use this word, that you in no way shaped the tweak.

    Will you now please stop saying you shaped it and deserve some credit. I hope now you can finally admit it.

    Grant did you look up those terms? You just said "Yours and King's input to the iWidgets thread led me to believe otherwise". External locus of control.
    Oh for Heaven's sake, Krima, PIPE DOWN and let the grown-ups work this out - like ADULTS do. ()...... Durben just shared, no constant mode would have been okay with him ("I could deal" - exact words), if auto-update had not technically been achievable. I simply tried to influence his view in the early days of the tweak's development. If that's not 'shaping the tweak' in your opinion - fine.. It's a semantics argument now.. Please give 'er a rest, bro..
    Last edited by NewdestinyX; 09-05-2013 at 01:34 PM.
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  28. #658
    Durben was willing to live with it, but I wasn't. So it's not an issue of semantics, it's an issue of interpreting it the way that works for you. In the very beginning we made a wish list of all the features that we wanted ( this is typical for a mechanical engineer ). Then we try to get them all to work. Durben was willing to make that concession to full auto updating, but it never came off the table or was ever in jeopardy of being downgraded to a manual operation.

    Check out WW2 for iOS 8 - Widget-Weather 2.0

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  30. #659
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Here's a quick stat collection I did comparing iphoneforums highest traffic jailbreak section to ours:

    iPhoneforums iPhone help section:

    2011: 2300 new threads made
    2010: 740 new threads made (seems their threads don't go back that far, weird huh for such an old high traffic forum).

    MMi General section under jailbreaking:

    2011: 5300 new threads made
    2010: 7780 new threads made

    Now that is just comparing the highest traffic jailbreak sections I could find. From what I can see we have a lot more sub sections than they do so something is telling me that gap could get much wider if I were to continue and work out the stats for every jailbreak section here and there. Not sure you want me to do that though Grant. Let me know how that humble pie tastes, although I am sure you will find some way to spin this somehow to wriggle out of saying you were and are wrong.

  31. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Simon For This Useful Post:

    EricB78 (09-05-2013), King_O_Hill (09-05-2013), Krima (09-05-2013)

  32. #660
    He will find some way to spin this in his favor. Just look at his last post. King and Durben both said that he didn't shape the tweak but because Durben said he "could deal" with it not auto updating, that this means that Grant shaped the tweak.

    I mean, am I the only one that reads this and seriously thinks that this guy has a serious delusional problem? Something is really off with this guy but I love hearing how he over reaches and how condescending he is. He will not admit out right that he was wrong. Even with these numbers he will not just admit it and stop.

    Laissez le bon temps rouler (Let the good times roll).

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to Krima For This Useful Post:

    Simon (09-05-2013)

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