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Amnesty him. Make him "Disappear". I dont care lol. I am being a bit harsh. He has been decent on defense. 100% liability on offense though.
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  1. #5041
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Amnesty him. Make him "Disappear". I dont care lol.

    I am being a bit harsh. He has been decent on defense. 100% liability on offense though.

  2. #5042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Amnesty him. Make him "Disappear". I dont care lol.

    I am being a bit harsh. He has been decent on defense. 100% liability on offense though.
    Its hard because they are in between a contender and needing to be in a rebuilding phase. Anything can happen in the NBA though, they might sign Deron Williams in the off season and jump right back into the top 4, then they just need to worry about a bench. If that doesn't happen though they should probably start collecting draft picks asap.

  3. #5043
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    I hear ya. Whatever they do they need to do it soon. I dunno how much longer Kobe can play like this.

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    Have the worst record in the league n get sullinger

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    The Basketball Guru punjabi212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I hear ya. Whatever they do they need to do it soon. I dunno how much longer Kobe can play like this.
    Plus Kobe's already in "pissed off" mode. Kobe Bryant rips Los Angeles Lakers management about potential Pau Gasol trade - ESPN Los Angeles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho paco View Post
    Have the worst record in the league n get sullinger
    You must not be paying to close attention to college ball this year, sullinger is a lottery pick, probably around 12th, Anthony Davis is BY FAR the best player in college basketball and a lock at the number 1 overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    You must not be paying to close attention to college ball this year, sullinger is a lottery pick, probably around 12th, Anthony Davis is BY FAR the best player in college basketball and a lock at the number 1 overall.
    Yea i heard of him alot.
    Yea im one of those people tht just interested in march madness

  8. #5048
    The Basketball Guru punjabi212's Avatar
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    Anyone watching the Knicks - Nets game? The refs are horrible tonight.

  9. #5049
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Keeping track of the score. Not watching it though. I dont have those teams on my league pass.

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    The Basketball Guru punjabi212's Avatar
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    Lot's of bad calls but Deron Williams is killing it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho paco View Post
    Yea i heard of him alot.
    Yea im one of those people tht just interested in march madness
    IC, Kentucky will be great to watch in the tourny, big names are Anthony Davis, Sullinger, Jeremy Lamb and Drummond (even tho UConn is terrible), the Zeller brothers, Fab Melo, and Harisson Barnes. Be interesting of the Bobcats trade down to take Lamb pair Kemba with his former teammate, but Davis is hard to pass up, especially with two failures like Diaw and Tyrus Thomas at the 4.

    This Celtics Mavs game is terrible lol, hows things going in the battle for NYC? Yes, I'm already calling them the New York Nets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    IC, Kentucky will be great to watch in the tourny, big names are Anthony Davis, Sullinger, Jeremy Lamb and Drummond (even tho UConn is terrible), the Zeller brothers, Fab Melo, and Harisson Barnes. Be interesting of the Bobcats trade down to take Lamb pair Kemba with his former teammate, but Davis is hard to pass up, especially with two failures like Diaw and Tyrus Thomas at the 4.

    This Celtics Mavs game is terrible lol, hows things going in the battle for NYC? Yes, I'm already calling them the New York Nets.
    Brooklyn Nets you mean. lol

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    chi-town fanatic! Paco's Avatar
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    Is tht plan still on? Havent heard of it for quite a while now

  14. #5054
    The Basketball Guru punjabi212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho paco View Post
    Is tht plan still on? Havent heard of it for quite a while now
    The arena is almost 100% built. lol

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    can I get a summary I'm not an "insider"

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    REALLY, IT WAS JUST A SMALL THING: During the second quarter of a January game against Orlando, Kevin Garnett pushed Dwight Howard out of the paint. A moment later, as the Magic center reached up to catch an entry pass, Garnett shoved him even farther from the hoop. Howard took two dribbles, got stuck and kicked it out to Hedo Turkoglu. When the forward tried to send it back to his big man, KG knocked the ball away, sprinted down the court, took the pass under the hoop and, as three defenders converged on him, kicked it out to Brandon Bass for a wide-open jumper. Swish.

    Again, it was just a little thing: Garnett making sure his opponent didn't get good positioning. But it's amazing how the 35-year-old forward can turn small things into momentum-changing swings. Until that sequence, Howard had been torching the Celtics centers, scoring 13 points on 4-of-7 shooting. But after KG became his primary defender, Howard went 0-for-8 the rest of the way, and a 32-30 Celtics lead became a 31-point beatdown, with Boston holding Orlando to franchise lows in points (56) and field goals (16). "We don't like putting Kevin at the 5 a lot," Celtics coach Doc Rivers said after the win, "but he was so good tonight."

    Howard wasn't buying it. When asked if Garnett had anything to do with his transformation from dominating colossus to Dwayne Schintzius knockoff, the All-Star scrunched his nose, squinted his eyes and looked as if he wanted to spit the question right back. "It had nothing to do with the defense of Kevin Garnett," Howard said. "I was just rushing shots."

    The casual fan might not have thought KG had a hugely impressive game either. The vet had 14 points, 10 rebounds and 2 assists, numbers more or less in line with his season averages. But the common stat line has never done Garnett justice. There's no box score column for stifling defense, crushing picks or unselfish swing passes. In fact, to understand KG's value -- to understand why he's not just a Hall of Famer but an inner-circle great -- you need a new set of statistics.

    This has long been understood by the cavalcade of NBA number crunchers, who at the same time Garnett emerged as a franchise player for Minnesota developed a novel analytical approach to the game. One of the metrics they popularized was plus/minus, and against Orlando, Garnett registered a plus-26, meaning the Celtics outscored the Magic by 26 points when No. 5 was on the floor. Since that game, the Celtics, all but written off as an aging team on its last legs, have surged back into the playoff picture with wins over the Pacers, Grizzlies and Bulls. The stat fiends will tell you KG's play is a huge reason for the turnaround; his defensive rating, a metric that reveals how many points a player allows per 100 possessions, was eighth best in the league through Feb. 7.

    But Garnett's impact is felt far beyond Boston. During the past decade, as he grew from prodigy to MVP to champion, the statheads grew from Internet pontificators to NBA team consultants to GMs. The Boston forward, then, is the poster child for a movement that now influences how every smart team composes a roster. Even in the autumn of his career, Kevin Garnett is the future of the NBA.

    IN THE EARLY 2000s, if the only thing you loved more than an NBA game was a good spreadsheet, Yahoo's message board for the APBR (Association of Professional Basketball Research) was the place to be. Here, folks like John Hollinger, Kevin Pelton, Roland Beech and Dean Oliver tossed around big ideas and bigger numbers. They'd all eventually share their advanced metrics with NBA teams or big media outlets, but for the time being, they logged in early in the morning or late at night because not all of them had jobs that tolerated Excel spreadsheets dedicated to valuing Derrick Coleman's play. But that was what they loved about the APBR: the chance to answer the NBA's most vexing questions, down to whether Antoine Walker's absurd shot selection was a product of selfishness or just his knowing how awful most of his teammates were. This was some serious old-school Internet nerd action.

    One day in 2003, a new set of stats popped up on Yahoo regarding Kevin Garnett. Attempting to bolster KG's MVP candidacy, the Timberwolves had issued game notes declaring that Garnett "was worth an additional 25.3 points per 48 minutes played in 2002-03, nearly doubling the other leading MVP candidates in that category." Paul Swanson, the PR guy who concocted the metric, was looking for a way to show that Garnett was even better than his traditional stats (23 points, 13.4 rebounds, 6 assists) would have you believe. In so doing, he forever changed basketball analytics. "It opened our eyes to how big the discrepancy can be when a star player was on the court versus on the bench," Pelton says.

    Still, that season ended badly for Garnett and Minnesota. Tim Duncan was named MVP, and the Timberwolves went down in six to the Lakers in the playoffs' first round. It was the seventh straight season KG's team failed to win its opening series. When the forward walked off the court after the final game in LA, having been trounced by 16, his rep as a player who couldn't win seemed fully justified.

    But the Yahoo guys knew better. Beech, who created the influential stats site 82games.com, wrote a column calling Garnett's 2002-03 season "a year for the ages." He highlighted not just Garnett's plus/minus but his defensive rebounding (second best in the NBA) and clutch scoring. (Garnett was averaging more than 30 points per 48 minutes in close and late games.)

    Oliver widened the scope of analytics in November 2003, when he published the book Basketball on Paper. In it, he established the possession as the fundamental unit of hoops statistics and wrote that using those possessions efficiently was the key to victory. There are 85 to 95 possessions in a typical game, each one an opportunity either missed or seized. From that vantage point, Oliver introduced two stats: offensive rating (points per 100 possessions) and defensive rating (the same, in reverse). Not surprisingly, with his high-percentage shooting and lock-down D, Garnett ranked high in these measures.

    Feeding off one another, the Yahoo guys and others in the analytics movement introduced more stats, including usage rate, rebound rate, assist ratio and turnover ratio. Those stats could not only be applied to both players and teams, but they -- and others -- could be whipped into holistic metrics, such as Player Efficiency Rating, a version of which was designed by Hollinger (now a writer for ESPN.com) to illustrate a player's impact on a per-minute basis.

    At last, there were numbers to back up the suspicion that, say, a gunslinger type such as Ricky Davis wasn't all that valuable. But whereas baseball's stats community overturned years of conventional wisdom, the APBR crew confirmed all the things coaches had been saying for years about selfless play. The Vitruvian ideal of this was Garnett, and he became a rallying point for the movement. "He was considered a great player," Oliver says. "But how great? In the analytics group, we could actually say."

    Never mind that Garnett would win only one MVP award, in 2003-04. An economist named David Berri, citing a stat he created called Wins Produced, which boils down a player's positive and negative contributions into one number, went so far as to argue that KG was the NBA's best player in every season from 2002-03 to 2005-06. Yes, better than Duncan, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki and Kobe Bryant.

    DURING THE SUMMER OF 2007, Garnett was traded to the Celtics, a team owned by Wyc Grousbeck and Steve Pagliuca, venture capital and private-equity guys who placed a heavy emphasis on statistical analysis. It was likely not a coincidence that they targeted the Timberwolves All-Star. When they bought the team in 2002, they brought along with them a young consultant named Daryl Morey, who'd helped with the sale. Despite having never worked in basketball, he loved to talk stats and had read guys like Oliver and Hollinger. Soon he was advising Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge about player evaluations, drafts and trades. Morey left in 2006 to take the Rockets' assistant GM job, but his protégé, Mike Zarren, remained in Boston, assuming the role of team stat guru. Zarren wouldn't comment for this story -- as analytics has gone mainstream, it has also become increasingly secretive -- but the Celtics no doubt knew just how valuable KG was at the time. Why else would they trade two first-rounders and emerging big man Al Jefferson, among other assets, for a 31-year-old player? The move paid immediate dividends. During his first season in Boston, the forward added 12.2 points per 100 possessions to the Celtics' cause, the most on the team. Boston won the title -- this time with Garnett eliminating the Lakers in six games.

    KG's offensive output has predictably diminished in the past four seasons, particularly since he strained a tendon in his knee in 2009. Yet he's still steadily climbing the NBA's all-time leaderboard in Win Shares, a metric that credits players for their contributions to their team's wins. Garnett ranks ninth, just behind David Robinson and ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon and Bill Russell. (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is No. 1 by a long distance.)

    Why is the seven-footer still so valuable? Well, Garnett is just as dominant defensively as he ever was. Though he's averaging a block a game this season, down from his peak of 2.2 in 2003-04, he finds other ways of impeding good looks. He'll stick his hands on the inside of an opponent's chest, positioning them almost like a lineman in football, to knock a guy off his cut. He's also an expert at jostling with his legs to push players off the blocks. "He's got the awareness of what the other team is trying to get to and how to disrupt it," says Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau. That's particularly evident in Garnett's defense of the pick-and-roll. "He's one of the best ever," Nash says. "He anticipates and takes up a ton of space."

    If Garnett were playing in the 1980s, none of these small things would show up in any metric. But thanks to a second hoops analytics revolution, one that's shining a light on defense, everything is illuminated.

    In 2004, Garrick Barr left his assistant coaching job with the Suns to launch Synergy, a company that obsessively tracks every detail of every NBA game. Eight years later, all 30 teams and many media outlets, including ESPN, pay thousands per year for Barr's service. One of the details that Synergy tracks is pick-and-roll defense. According to its numbers, of the 246 times last season that teams ran a pick-and-roll against Garnett and the initial ballhandler ended up shooting, there were only 62 made field goals, putting the forward in the 84th percentile of defenders. Of the 48 instances in which the pick man was matched up against Garnett and tried to score, there were just eight made field goals, placing KG in the 95th percentile. Add up all possible defensive scenarios and opponents scored 0.786 points per possession against Garnett last season, putting him in the 89th percentile.

    As for this season? Through Feb. 13, opponents were scoring 0.646 points per possession against the Celtics big man. Howard may not want to admit it, but KG has actually gotten better.

    WHETHER OR NOT the Celtics win a playoff series this spring for the fifth straight season, you can bet Garnett will leave an imprint on the championship trophy; his disciples can be found just about everywhere. By 2007, KG's first year in Boston, the stat movement had already shifted from the fringes of message boards into NBA front offices. That season, Oliver served as the director of quantitative analysis for Denver after working as a consultant in Seattle for two years. Morey, who became GM in 2007, put together three straight playoff teams in Houston. These days, somewhere around 10 teams lean heavily on analytics, according to Oliver, who left the Nuggets in 2011 to join Hollinger at ESPN.

    The defending champs are perhaps the biggest believers. As the self-described stats coach for the Mavs, Beech attends all coaches meetings, sits behind the bench and dishes advice to Rick Carlisle on optimal lineups and matchups. Many credit him with Dallas' decision to start J.J. Barea in last year's Finals, which proved key to its upset of the Heat.

    And so it is that what the stat guys first recognized -- and Garnett best personified -- is increasingly ruling NBA decision-making. Exhibit A: Arron Afflalo. The fifth-year Nuggets swingman was a restricted free agent in the off-season. His traditional numbers for 2010-11 were decent enough -- 12.6 points, 3.6 rebounds, 2.4 assists -- but nothing compared with his advanced stats. He had the sixth-highest offensive rating, at 122.8 points per 100 possessions. "His free agency was a test case of sorts for whether teams were valuing analytics differently now," says Pelton, who's been a consultant for the Pacers since 2010.

    The answer seems to have been yes. The Nuggets re-signed Afflalo to a five-year, $43 million deal. And though his numbers are down slightly this season, he's playing a key role on a team with the fourth most efficient offense in the league.

    KG's influence can most directly be seen in his protégé, former Celtic Kendrick Perkins. Like Garnett, Perkins is a master of the little things: cement slab screens, tough D and good communication. That may be why Oklahoma City, a team that takes analytics seriously (turn the page for more on that), targeted Perkins last year, even though he averaged just six points and eight rebounds a game in an injury-prone season. After Perkins' emotional return to Boston at the beginning of this seasona Thunder winDoc Rivers said, "You know, his influence on that team is dramatic to me. You can see it with the bigs. They block out; they're all defensive players now. Perk has completely changed the culture of that team. And he used Kevin's playbook."

    When asked about following Garnett's model, Perkins said, "I just try to do what I can -- I just try to be a leader by example." Expounding on his old mentor, he added, "In the stat sheet, everything he does, period, doesn't show up. The screens he sets -- he just plays for his team, and it doesn't show up."

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    thanks for the post, good article, seriously intelligent people that developed those metrics, measuring the immeasurable.

  19. #5059
    Superbad Modder-ator Simon's Avatar
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    Ok, you need to post all the good "insider" articles lol. I hate when ESPN does that crap.

  20. #5060
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Ok, you need to post all the good "insider" articles lol. I hate when ESPN does that crap.
    I'll def start to post them, but you be the judge if they're good or bad. Lol
    Last edited by punjabi212; 02-23-2012 at 08:54 AM.

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