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Originally Posted by davebu Leading the league is not about the LeBron vs Rose matchup every night. Rose will only go up against LeBron what twice? That matchup will have
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    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    Leading the league is not about the LeBron vs Rose matchup every night. Rose will only go up against LeBron what twice? That matchup will have nothing to do with the regular season records.

    Now to your irrelevant point, yes Rose did less than ideal against the Heat. We were unprepared for that matchup. Maybe a reason why they were going after Butler, try to force LeBron off of Rose. You also have to remember it was a team with basically no playoff experience vs a team with NBA Finals experience. The Bulls were missing one thing, a scoring option in a SG. Expect the Bulls to manhandle the Heat on the interior and hold them top 90 pts every time they play this year. It will be on the Bulls to push past that and win the game. Rip opens the court a lot for Rose and Deng. After the Bulls return for the #1 overall seed they will have a hard time with the Heat in the Eastern Conference Finals (granted the Heat make it, I would expect them to, but anything can happen), but they will come away with the win.

    And I don't hate the Heat, I just think Bosh looks like a Turkey (and is overrated) and LeBron is the anti-clutch.
    Don't forget that the Heat added Shane Battier who plays good defense and can knock down the 3. All anyone really has to do is stop Rose (which is hard but Lebron can do/did it) and make the other players beat them. Rip doesn't put them over the top.

    Dirk was the best player last year as he proved it in the playoffs.

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    Dirk was by far #1 in the playoffs, but I'd give the nod to Howard for the regular season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortopher View Post
    Rose was not the best player in the league last year.
    Pretty sure that is the definition of MVP.

    Quote Originally Posted by punjabi212 View Post
    Don't forget that the Heat added Shane Battier who plays good defense and can knock down the 3. All anyone really has to do is stop Rose (which is hard but Lebron can do/did it) and make the other players beat them. Rip doesn't put them over the top.

    Dirk was the best player last year as he proved it in the playoffs.
    LeBron did it, one of the best defensive players, but he has such a longer reach and height advantage over Rose, thats why he was able to do it. Not everyone has a LeBron to put on Rose. Battier doesn't really make an impact IMO, yes improving their depth is great, but come playoffs I don't expect him to make a difference. And Rip does make a difference, it forces different matchups as you cant have a PG guarding him like you could on Korver or Bogans. Miami would have to play without a PG if they were going to have LeBron guarding Rose, and that will severely hurt them. It also gives them another offensive playmaker so Rose doesn't have to overextend himself.

    Also, do you see any other teams having another player that would be able to slow Rose down like LeBron did? BTW, it seems like everyone is talking about Bulls vs Heat being the #1 matchup any other teams wanna chime in against either of the two? Maybe a west team? I don't see any of them being a threat, i expect the eastern conference to be the bulls and heat again, for the next couple of years even, and this year the winner taking the championship easily. I don't think the west will be able to compete (but then again, anything can happen, breakout player of the year, unheard of rookie dominating, the spurs playing decent, anything can happen)

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    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    Pretty sure that is the definition of MVP.
    Most Valuable Player doesn't mean best player in the league that year. Just means most valuable to his team (as well as other factors the voters take into account). Would you say those two years Steve Nash won it he was the best player in the league then? Don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post



    LeBron did it, one of the best defensive players, but he has such a longer reach and height advantage over Rose, thats why he was able to do it. Not everyone has a LeBron to put on Rose. Battier doesn't really make an impact IMO, yes improving their depth is great, but come playoffs I don't expect him to make a difference. And Rip does make a difference, it forces different matchups as you cant have a PG guarding him like you could on Korver or Bogans. Miami would have to play without a PG if they were going to have LeBron guarding Rose, and that will severely hurt them. It also gives them another offensive playmaker so Rose doesn't have to overextend himself.

    Also, do you see any other teams having another player that would be able to slow Rose down like LeBron did? BTW, it seems like everyone is talking about Bulls vs Heat being the #1 matchup any other teams wanna chime in against either of the two? Maybe a west team? I don't see any of them being a threat, i expect the eastern conference to be the bulls and heat again, for the next couple of years even, and this year the winner taking the championship easily. I don't think the west will be able to compete (but then again, anything can happen, breakout player of the year, unheard of rookie dominating, the spurs playing decent, anything can happen)
    I'll let mortopher answer this one for you. You know, fan of the team that just beat one of your so called Eastern powerhouses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Most Valuable Player doesn't mean best player in the league that year. Just means most valuable to his team (as well as other factors the voters take into account). Would you say those two years Steve Nash won it he was the best player in the league then? Don't think so.
    Yea, not really seeing the difference. The best player or the player who played the best for their team? Sounds the same to me. Last year Rose was the best player. He did more for his team than anyone else. Nash was the best (at least according to the voters) those years. His ability to make his teammates that much better and create plays for other players made him the best at that time. If you don't think he was the best player last year then I'm sure you disagree with him winning it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I'll let mortopher answer this one for you. You know, fan of the team that just beat one of your so called Eastern powerhouses.
    Do you doubt that they are just that?

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    The Celtics are probably going to sign Arenas now that Jeff Green is out for the year.

    @davebu Your point of there only being 1 Lebron is my point. For the Bulls to reach the finals they're gonna have to go through Miami. Lebron is the point-forward for the Heat, they don't need a good PG. And none of us are psychics, let's just wait till they play the damn games lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabi212 View Post
    The Celtics are probably going to sign Arenas now that Jeff Green is out for the year.

    @davebu Your point of there only being 1 Lebron is my point. For the Bulls to reach the finals they're gonna have to go through Miami. Lebron is the point-forward for the Heat, they don't need a good PG. And none of us are psychics, let's just wait till they play the damn games lol.
    Cmon, speculation is the best! lol. And I disagree with that they don't need a real PG on the court. LeBron in the 4th is to selfish, and honestly, not that good in the 4th. He will cost Wade possessions playing that way, costing them points as Wade is much more clutch.

    Yes he's a once in a generation type of player, but I don't see him rewriting what's been used for years in a PG, SG, SF, PF, C. There are various advantages to each position and the Heat will loose the PG, loosing spreading the ball, hitting the open man. If thats how the Heat decide to play defensively against the Bulls I expect Rose to get 10 assists in the 4th, with a few buckets as well, and LeBron to be shut down completely first because
    I asked Lebron for a dollar and he gave me $0.75. I asked, "Where's the rest?" and he said, "I don't give a fourth quarter"
    yea yea, overused joke aside, he really doesn't, and with Deng, one of the best defenders in the league (whose also good for 18ppg).

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    I don't think Steve Nash was the best player at all during those years he won. Kobe was a much better player those years to name one. MVP doesn't mean best player in the league. Never has. Another example would be Karl Malone the year he won. I wouldn't consider him better than Michael Jordan that year.

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    I think you mean unselfish in the 4th? He defers to Wade. They Heat will most likely pick up Baron Davis even though he's out for 8-10 weeks. Baron was always a top 5 PG in the league when he tried. Key word though.... 'TRIED'

    PG - Advantage Bulls
    SG - Advange Heat
    SF - Advantage Heat
    PF - Wash (even though Bosh outplayed Boozer in the series)
    C - Advantage Bulls

    Bench - up in the air

    Again, I have to see these teams play. Good thing I have League Pass haha. Lot's of teams look good on paper in every sport (a.k.a. Phil. Eagles) but it's what they do on the court/field that counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I don't think Steve Nash was the best player at all during those years he won. Kobe was a much better player those years to name one. MVP doesn't mean best player in the league. Never has. Another example would be Karl Malone the year he won. I wouldn't consider him better than Michael Jordan that year.
    I agree one of the years that Nash won, Kobe should have won. Kobe was playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker LMAO and he carried them into the playoffs.
    Last edited by punjabi212; 12-17-2011 at 01:24 PM.

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    Kobe was most definitely robbed of the MVP that 2nd year that Nash won it.

    MVP does not translate to the best player in the league. As alluded to earlier, Jordan would have won it pretty much every year after he came into his prime.

    MVP is merely what player is most valuable to their team, but even by that standard, I still don't believe that Rose was the #1 choice. Howard was hands down the only thing that kept Orlando even in the running. Go and take a look at the number of games played by his supporting cast; the guy had absolutely no solid support throughout the entire season.

    You could also make the argument for Dirk too. Take a look at how they did while he was out with injury, they were 2-7 through that time, and then 1-3 "with a getting into shape Dirk."

    The more I think about our roster this year, the more I am excited about the season. I can't wait to see how Odom fits in. Mahinmi will definitely get more minutes this year after he stepped up and held his own during the playoffs. I just hope Beaubois is back to he original strength.

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    I gotta say tht the thing tht put Rose over Howard was that Bulls had the best record oh n the stats.
    Has Howard won a MVP award?

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    lmao. Smush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancho paco View Post
    I gotta say tht the thing tht put Rose over Howard was that Bulls had the best record oh n the stats.
    Has Howard won a MVP award?
    No, but he has won defensive player of the year 3 times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabi212 View Post
    I think you mean unselfish in the 4th? He defers to Wade. They Heat will most likely pick up Baron Davis even though he's out for 8-10 weeks. Baron was always a top 5 PG in the league when he tried. Key word though.... 'TRIED'

    PG - Advantage Bulls
    SG - Advange Heat
    SF - Advantage Heat
    PF - Wash (even though Bosh outplayed Boozer in the series)
    C - Advantage Bulls

    Bench - up in the air

    Again, I have to see these teams play. Good thing I have League Pass haha. Lot's of teams look good on paper in every sport (a.k.a. Phil. Eagles) but it's what they do on the court/field that counts.



    I agree one of the years that Nash won, Kobe should have won. Kobe was playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker LMAO and he carried them into the playoffs.
    Every time I saw LeBron in the 4th he would be holing on to the ball way to long, he may get rid of it, but only after missing 3 opportunities to get rid of it with someone else having a chance to score. I missed the championship, heard he was even worse in that series.

    I'd still say the Bulls have an advantage on the bench, Bosh somehow did outplay Boozer, not that Boozer is the best or anything just Bosh normally isn't very good. I would seriously consider taking Taj Gibson over Boozer, if he plays like he did that series then I would take him over Bosh as well. I also think you overestimate the advantages at the other positions, Rose is far better than any PG they would be able to put on the court, same with Noah. LeBron isn't that much better than Deng in comparison, and normally I would say wade has a huge advantage over Rip, or any other SG we could throw out there, but Wade never plays well against the Bulls.

    And yes Kobe carried them into the playoffs, but straight stats is not stat line. Win shares and efficiency are major factors, but not always everything either. Nash may not have really deserved it, but he was given it because of how good he made the players around him. Without him they were all much much worse. They rewarded his unselfish play. They may have done it to attempt to make other players try to be more unselfish. You can't deny that he wasn't the best at moving the ball around, hitting the open man, and confusing the defense. He may not have been the best scorer, but thats not all the game is about.

    Dirk's presence is more emotional than anything. If that same team never had Dirk they wouldn't have been 3-10in that stretch. A great player, and he earned a much better award in the finals. Last time someone took both was Shaq 10 years ago.

    Dwight will probably get 2 more defensive player of the year awards, he'll probably get Rodman's 7 straight glass crowns record too, and an MVP.

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    Dwight's lucky he didn't play with Rodman, Hakeem, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Robinson, and Ben Wallace while in their primes (and to a certain extent, Duncan and Garnett). He has no competition right now.

    I think you're missing the point with Kobe. It wasn't all about his stats, but how he carried a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs. Nash was deserving of the MVP the first time but not the second IMO. And let's not forget, Nash is a huge liability on defense.

    One more week fellas, the Garden is goin' to be CRAZYYY!!!!!!
    Last edited by punjabi212; 12-18-2011 at 01:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    And yes Kobe carried them into the playoffs, but straight stats is not stat line. Win shares and efficiency are major factors, but not always everything either. Nash may not have really deserved it, but he was given it because of how good he made the players around him. Without him they were all much much worse. They rewarded his unselfish play. They may have done it to attempt to make other players try to be more unselfish. You can't deny that he wasn't the best at moving the ball around, hitting the open man, and confusing the defense. He may not have been the best scorer, but thats not all the game is about.
    So John Stockton should be sitting at home with 4 or 5 MVP trophies, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by davebu View Post
    Dirk's presence is more emotional than anything. If that same team never had Dirk they wouldn't have been 3-10in that stretch. A great player, and he earned a much better award in the finals. Last time someone took both was Shaq 10 years ago.
    You obviously aren't able to appreciate Dirk's game to the extent it deserves. You've got a 7' tall player that is truly a threat from ANYWHERE! Having a guy like that effects how your team plays away from the ball and how the other teams guard those without the ball. Double team him and he's got the size and skill to dish it off with easy. Play him close and hell either nail his trademark one foot fadeaway, step past you with his enormous gait or hell go to the line for a pretty much guaranteed two points (if not the 3 pt play). Numerous players have stated that he is by far one of the toughest players to defend in the entire league. That is a whole lot more than just an emotional presence.

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    Baron Davis to the Knicks. He's always wanted to play for the Knicks so hopefully he's motivated.

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    I just remembered we got Delonte West, we're doomed! Season is down the drain now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by punjabi212 View Post
    Dwight's lucky he didn't play with Rodman, Hakeem, Shaq, Mutumbo, Mourning, Robinson, and Ben Wallace while in their primes (and to a certain extent, Duncan and Garnett). He has no competition right now.

    I think you're missing the point with Kobe. It wasn't all about his stats, but how he carried a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs. Nash was deserving of the MVP the first time but not the second IMO. And let's not forget, Nash is a huge liability on defense.

    One more week fellas, the Garden is goin' to be CRAZYYY!!!!!!
    Did Kobe win the scoring title that year? And I do see the point you are making about Kobe, its the same point everyone has made since it happened. I am not going to say they always get it right, but I was saying that its about more that just stats. Nash may be a liability, but that was before the surge of talent at the PG position.

    I'm not saying that any of these guys are future HOF candidates, but there are some good big men around right now, and some great rebounders. He does have competition at that. Noah, Bogut, Love, Randolph, Griffin, Boozer, I'm sure theres a few more that could be added.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortopher View Post
    So John Stockton should be sitting at home with 4 or 5 MVP trophies, right?



    You obviously aren't able to appreciate Dirk's game to the extent it deserves. You've got a 7' tall player that is truly a threat from ANYWHERE! Having a guy like that effects how your team plays away from the ball and how the other teams guard those without the ball. Double team him and he's got the size and skill to dish it off with easy. Play him close and hell either nail his trademark one foot fadeaway, step past you with his enormous gait or hell go to the line for a pretty much guaranteed two points (if not the 3 pt play). Numerous players have stated that he is by far one of the toughest players to defend in the entire league. That is a whole lot more than just an emotional presence.
    If Stockton did play in a different time maybe, that Jazz team was one of the best teams, maybe the best team to never win it all. He was definitely talented enough to win it.

    Oh, I defenitely appreciate Dirk's game, he is a ridiculous player. What I meant by that is that team last year was good enough to do a lot better than 3-10 without Dirk. Not to underestimate his offensive prowess, but that team was overall great. If they weren't they would not have been able to win last season. The only player I've ever seen guard Dirk well was Noah, but Chandler made it so that couldn't happen all game. He just has way too many weapons.

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    Cuban has pretty much thrown in the towel on this season. Sigh...

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