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Thread: How Can Apple Do This Legally?

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Dear Chris, Greetings again from iTunes, my name is Mike and your app issue has been escalated to me. I am currently working toward getting you a refund for your
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    Angry How Can Apple Do This Legally?
    Dear Chris,

    Greetings again from iTunes, my name is Mike and your app issue has been escalated to me.

    I am currently working toward getting you a refund for your app. You will receive an email after the matter has been investigated and further information is available.

    Thank you for your patience. Again, I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. I will be contacting you soon. Thank you for being a member of our iTunes Store community. Have a great day!


    Sincerely,

    Mike
    iTunes Store Senior Advisor

    Please note I work; Tue-Sat 6:00a.m.-3:00p.m. PST

    Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to assist you. You may receive an AppleCare survey email; any feedback you provide would be greatly appreciated.





    Dear Chris,

    Greetings again, Mike here. I'm sorry that some of the items you purchased are no longer available. I am very sorry, but according to the iTunes Store Terms of Sale, all purchases made on the iTunes Store are final. Therefor I will not be able to issue a refund for the app.

    This policy matches Apple's refund policies and provides protection for copyrighted materials.

    You can review the iTunes Store Terms of Sale for more information:
    Apple - Redirect to Terms

    Please note that Apple does not offer protection for the loss of data from your hard disk, so I recommend that you back up your iTunes library as soon as possible and thereafter on a regular basis. If your hard disk needs to be replaced, you can restore your purchases and other data from the backup and avoid the need to purchase replacement copies of your collection. These articles explain how to back up your iTunes library:

    How to back up your media in iTunes
    How to back up your media in iTunes

    Also developers have the right to remove their content from the iTunes Store. The app may have been removed by the developer and not by us.

    You might wish to contact the developer. You can contact them here:

    WiFiFoFum

    Again, I apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. Thank you.

    Please note I work; Thursday-Monday 8:00a.m.-5:00p.m. PST





    Wow what a joke... It took escalation to a "Senior Advisor" and how many days in order to provide me with a bull **** response like that...? I could care less what your Terms of Sale says, have you ever heard of taking care of your customers? Why would you straight up lie to me, telling me to waste more of my time to contact the developer? The developer did not remove this app, I know that and you know that. Apple all of sudden removed this one and many other WiFi apps, arbitrarily after profiting off of it for years, and then you are going to refuse to refund my money? Is Apple looking for a lawsuit? Such a shame Apple is so greedy, record profits yet you wont refund a few dollars to a laid off Californian. Absolutely pathetic!





    Dear Chris,

    Again I am sorry that I cannot issue you a refund for the app. Although I cannot issue the refund would you accept some song credits so at the very least you can enjoy some music on me?

    Please reply and let me know if you would like me to add the credits to your account. Thank you.





    No I do not want song credits, I have never purchased music from you and do not plan to. I use the AppStore, give me App credits... Why can you not issue a refund for the app?? That is ridiculous, I personally know of other people who have been refunded for lesser reasons. If what you say is true, "I am very sorry, but according to the iTunes Store Terms of Sale, all purchases made on the iTunes Store are final." then why would some people be able to receive refunds and not others?? Furthermore why would you originally say "I am currently working toward getting you a refund for your app. You will receive an email after the matter has been investigated and further information is available." if you have a blanket policy based on your Terms of Sale, why would you have ever said this statement initially?? Obviously the Terms of Sale excuse is garbage, what reasoning does Apple take when randomly deciding who deserves refunds and who does not?? You remove a useful, original app and refuse to refund your customers, yet you will allow tons apps and games which duplicate another popular one and rely solely on people accidentally purchasing the wrong one, such as in my case "ParkinsLot" and "Parking Lot". I can not believe the amount of backwards non-sense decisions from Apple...



    <<<NO RESPONSE>>>



    So you are just going to ignore your customers now and not reply at all? How can you refuse a refund, you control what goes in the AppStore, yet you allow this app in for years. You profit off of it for a how long and then decide it is not allowed because of code that was used in it which wasn't hidden or not known of when it was first allowed. How can you not expect a lawsuit or FCC regulations eventually? What incentive do people have to not jailbreak? From where I stand now, after this correspondence, I don't see why I shouldn't. The app that you removed, and refuse to even refund my money for, is available free if you do. I have always been a big fan of Apple, but more and more lately you are really pissing off your loyal customers... It is really quite sad.





    Hello Chris,

    We would have liked the opportunity to address your concerns, but your language made it difficult.

    Under the iTunes Terms of Service for the Apps Store it states:
    "You agree not to modify the software in any manner or form, or to use modified versions of the software, for any purposes including obtaining unauthorized access to the Service. Violations of system or network security may result in civil or criminal liability."

    Jailbreaking any apps or your ipod/iPhone is a violation of these terms.

    The iTunes Store Sales and Service Policies are available for you to review:

    Terms of Sale

    Terms of Service
    Apple - Redirect to Terms


    The iTunes Store now considers this case closed to further discussion. Any further responses pertaining to this issue will go unanswered. Thank you for your understanding.
    Last edited by stasis; 04-23-2010 at 05:17 PM.

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    iPhone? More like MyPhone babydol's Avatar
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    Wow..

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    That is pretty stupid. There's buying an app and then thinking its stupid and not refunding their money, but when they literally can not use the app it is ridiculous to deny them a refund. What I do not agree with is when you said you don't want song credits but app credits. I understand you were upset but the guy was showing consent. Being a human being, he feels compassion for others so he wanted to do something to help as reperations but you didn't just deny it, you kinda threw it right back in his face. I feel a little bad for the guy. Also, the fact that they just dropped it all because your ipod is jailbroken out of no where after you made some points is just not right. I understand Apple not wanting to help as jailbreaking voids the policy but they should have at least said more instead of just leaving you in the dark, likely just enraging you ten times more.

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    Pwner of Pwnage PWNsyst3m's Avatar
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    What a b**** move by apple lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownToaster View Post
    That is pretty stupid. There's buying an app and then thinking its stupid and not refunding their money, but when they literally can not use the app it is ridiculous to deny them a refund. What I do not agree with is when you said you don't want song credits but app credits. I understand you were upset but the guy was showing consent. Being a human being, he feels compassion for others so he wanted to do something to help as reperations but you didn't just deny it, you kinda threw it right back in his face. I feel a little bad for the guy. Also, the fact that they just dropped it all because your ipod is jailbroken out of no where after you made some points is just not right. I understand Apple not wanting to help as jailbreaking voids the policy but they should have at least said more instead of just leaving you in the dark, likely just enraging you ten times more.
    Well I have no use for song credits, I literally have never once purchased music or anything from iTunes, I only use the AppStore. I felt the refusal of them since they were basically worthless to me would prove a point and express my discontent, but apparently not... I am sure this wasn't just this guy having compassion, its probably SOP to get a mad customer to shut up...

    As far as the jailbreaking, I did not say that mine is, and it still isnt as of today. I just stated that there is not much incentive for me not to, the app in question was released for free on Cydia after Apple decided to pull it from the AppStore, I read this on the developers site after Apple told me to contact them. Also that was only after seeing this was not going to get anywhere, they just stopped responding, I waited for weeks...

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    Thats just crazy...I'm going thru the same thing with some apps that I have purchased and want my damn refund , I'm gonna email them asap and use this as reference...like no i don't want no damn song credit lol
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    wow that sucks




    Please know we are praying Kyle (poetic_folly) and Robyn Matthews for your little one.
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    Lawsuit...

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    Dunno how many cheeseburgers full of snot this guy has had. Probably a good few.

    Obviously spurred on by all the negative publicity Apple has been getting, you seen an opportunity to act like a tit and then go post your story on numerous blogs.

    If only you had the common sense to back up, eh?
    To live, you have to lie

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    Yeah I don't know, maybe they can get away with this BS all because of their stupid terms of sale that probably 1% of people read and millions spent on lawyers. The laws on terms of sale and usage agreements probably needs to be changed. Just seems like everyone is trying to rip you off lately... This really got to me, I think it was a $5 app, if it was $1 I would care so much. But when you are laid off and unemployment doesn't even cover your rent, $5 means a lot more, that's a meal at least... It's not like this app didn't use the same API when they first accepted it. This app was one of many that were removed for "using undocumented, private API’s". Although this app was a very useful, original and popular app I can understand that Apple would not allow it if that is the true reason. However it never should have been accepted in the first place, if they want total control over their market place, how can they refuse to refund your money when they approved it and profited off of many, many sales over a long time? Companies should realize that this kind of thing is only going to bring further action and push people away. Corporate USA has a complete lack of morality. Can I provide a service to someone or sell something and put in a multiple page terms of sale agreement that I am straight up going to rip them off and not provide the services or products? Then as long as I get them to click yes to it quickly so they can get on with their lives they have absolutely no way of recouping a thing? I don't think that would work for you or me, how does corporate America get away with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stasis View Post
    Well I have no use for song credits, I literally have never once purchased music or anything from iTunes, I only use the AppStore. I felt the refusal of them since they were basically worthless to me would prove a point and express my discontent, but apparently not... I am sure this wasn't just this guy having compassion, its probably SOP to get a mad customer to shut up...

    As far as the jailbreaking, I did not say that mine is, and it still isnt as of today. I just stated that there is not much incentive for me not to, the app in question was released for free on Cydia after Apple decided to pull it from the AppStore, I read this on the developers site after Apple told me to contact them. Also that was only after seeing this was not going to get anywhere, they just stopped responding, I waited for weeks...
    Yeah no I understand not being having use for it, but I would probably have told him it doesn't help me and then rant more on my point. Saying that you wanted app credits to me just felt kinda disrespectful to him. (I know you were upset, I understand.) I know from experience in talking to support people that sometimes they do want to give something to help. I got a five dollar gift card code from one to redeem. I kinda didn't want to accept it though, she bought it with her own money for me, but Its not like something she covets, she wanted me to have it so I took it and said thanks.

    Now to get back on track, yes, I do feel he should have continued to handle it instead of just left you out in the dark. Ah, so you just said you could easily do so, kinda like saying your the reason why we jailbreak which is reasonable. They should not have just looked at jailbreaking and assume he jailbroke and deny him service. If it is so that he just wanted to deny you and give up, I would agree, but I feel he was trying to help the best he could, cut a guy some slack, saying he would try to get you a refund. I'd feel like a dumbass responding saying that I can't because its against the terms I SHOULD know on the back of my head. Then he wanted to make up for it with music then be further embarrassed with the whole I don't buy music off iTunes thing. I can not tell whether the last message was giving the cold shoulder or he thought you were jailbroken or what, but that was the point that through me more on to your side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redcard View Post
    Dunno how many cheeseburgers full of snot this guy has had. Probably a good few.

    Obviously spurred on by all the negative publicity Apple has been getting, you seen an opportunity to act like a tit and then go post your story on numerous blogs.

    If only you had the common sense to back up, eh?
    Wow, what an intelligent response... First of all I don't eat cheese burgers, or ground beef, ever. Obviously spurred on by all the negative publicity? I didn't think Apple had much bad publicity right now, and if they do then that is their fault, obviously then I am not the only one they are screwing... Why am I acting like a tit, I would say you are the one that is. This email correspondence started months ago, the last email I received today, about a half hour before posting this. It pissed me off so I posted it in forums, no blog... I am not looking for any publicity or attention, I don't give a crap about any blog, I don't read any blogs and do not have one. With no other option of recourse I chose to post this so others can see this nonsense, what is wrong with that?

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    Default How Can Apple Do This Legally?
    They just did

    Quote Originally Posted by stasis View Post
    Wow, what an intelligent response... First of all I don't eat cheese burgers, or ground beef, ever.
    So a vegan? Even worse...
    Last edited by Bernie-Mac; 04-23-2010 at 06:27 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownToaster View Post
    Yeah no I understand not being having use for it, but I would probably have told him it doesn't help me and then rant more on my point. Saying that you wanted app credits to me just felt kinda disrespectful to him. (I know you were upset, I understand.) I know from experience in talking to support people that sometimes they do want to give something to help. I got a five dollar gift card code from one to redeem. I kinda didn't want to accept it though, she bought it with her own money for me, but Its not like something she covets, she wanted me to have it so I took it and said thanks.

    Now to get back on track, yes, I do feel he should have continued to handle it instead of just left you out in the dark. Ah, so you just said you could easily do so, kinda like saying your the reason why we jailbreak which is reasonable. They should not have just looked at jailbreaking and assume he jailbroke and deny him service. If it is so that he just wanted to deny you and give up, I would agree, but I feel he was trying to help the best he could, cut a guy some slack, saying he would try to get you a refund. I'd feel like a dumbass responding saying that I can't because its against the terms I SHOULD know on the back of my head. Then he wanted to make up for it with music then be further embarrassed with the whole I don't buy music off iTunes thing. I can not tell whether the last message was giving the cold shoulder or he thought you were jailbroken or what, but that was the point that through me more on to your side.
    I am not blaming this guy, but he is representing the company he is being the voice of Apple, I have nothing else to go on. I am sure quoting the terms of sale section is normal anytime they see the keyword jailbreak, they just want to get rid of you and have a reason to not respond anymore. Keep in mind this set of emails is after many tries with other lower customer support people over weeks. I finally got them to "escalate" it to this "Sr Analyst" to just be told the same thing and get pushed away...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie-Mac View Post
    They just did



    So a vegan? Even worse...
    Well we will see how much longer they get away with it... How can people like you blindly side, and support something like this? Do you enjoy being ripped off by huge, million dollar companies?

    I said I dont eat ground beef, does that mean vegan? Um NO! I eat beef and many other meats, just not ground garbage of mystery meat...
    Last edited by stasis; 04-23-2010 at 06:46 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Please keep it civil. The OP was expressing his experience.

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    Exactly, it's not like I am making anything up, that is word for word how it went, make your own conclusion from it, I think it pretty much speaks for itself... I am not some Apple bashing fanboy looking for attention or to get on blogs, I would rather nobody know who I am... I have never had a bad experience with Apple before, which maybe is just because I never needed anything from them. I love their hardware, the quality is unlike any other, I am on my second iPhone and second MacBook.
    Last edited by stasis; 04-23-2010 at 07:03 PM.

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    What's Jailbreak? UnknownToaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stasis View Post
    I am not blaming this guy, but he is representing the company he is being the voice of Apple, I have nothing else to go on. I am sure quoting the terms of sale section is normal anytime they see the keyword jailbreak, they just want to get rid of you and have a reason to not respond anymore. Keep in mind this set of emails is after many tries with other lower customer support people over weeks. I finally got them to "escalate" it to this "Sr Analyst" to just be told the same thing and get pushed away...
    Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't aware his title was that large. I was thinking he was just like the head of the support team or something similar and he doesn't know a whole lot more than the guys trained be on the support team. I know people who just hear a word and ignore everything else because of that word. Say your trying to make an analogy or trying to make a point and you talk about Germany in a discussion about the Middle East then that person just stops listening and says That has nothing to do with this at all! Which is really annoying and ignorant, but it may be party the case. He sees jailbreaking, Ope, hes jailbroken, case closed. Not just trying to get it out of his hair, but then again, people can get really tired of a case and just send you over to someone else and then have them deal with it who sends you to someone else who sends you back and a big chain of people who are payed to give a crap but don't. Before I go off rambling, I'm just gonna say, I can't tell his intentions, I agree, theres a big chance he was just annoyed, but you can never be completely sure.

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    To answer your question, Yes, Apple can legally do this. A lawsuit is probably not going to happen, as no lawyer will fight Apple on this when EVERY end-user agreed to the T&C. Regardless of if you read it or just clicked "I agree", you still agreed to it.

    I don't blame the guy for not giving you a refund. I would've banned your iTunes accounts for being a dipshit. Even after you're half-*** written rants, he still offered you some compensation. You turned your nose up at it.

    Look at your responses, they look like they were written by a middle school student. "bull ****" looks really good when asking for support from a major company that owes you nothing. You are a customer, and if you don't like the products or service, nothing is stopping you from going to another company that will cater to you the way you want.

    IIRC, everyone who gets a refund through the apple store gets Credit for iTunes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownToaster View Post
    Yeah, that makes sense. I wasn't aware his title was that large. I was thinking he was just like the head of the support team or something similar and he doesn't know a whole lot more than the guys trained be on the support team. I know people who just hear a word and ignore everything else because of that word. Say your trying to make an analogy or trying to make a point and you talk about Germany in a discussion about the Middle East then that person just stops listening and says That has nothing to do with this at all! Which is really annoying and ignorant, but it may be party the case. He sees jailbreaking, Ope, hes jailbroken, case closed. Not just trying to get it out of his hair, but then again, people can get really tired of a case and just send you over to someone else and then have them deal with it who sends you to someone else who sends you back and a big chain of people who are payed to give a crap but don't. Before I go off rambling, I'm just gonna say, I can't tell his intentions, I agree, theres a big chance he was just annoyed, but you can never be completely sure.
    Oh I don't doubt he was annoyed, but hey it's his job, he chose it. It's like the airline baggage people, you have to expect that you are going to be dealing with angry customers. Over the years I have learned when dealing with these things you have to be very blunt and upfront, I have tried being the very nice, apathetic customer and it will never get you anywhere. Also I am sure he may be annoyed because of how many requests and people like me he has to deal with. They removed quite a few very popular apps, I am sure I am not the only one demanding a refund. But that is not my fault, nor his, but that is what his company has chosen to do and he is the first line of defense that has to deal with it. That is not my fault, Apple needs to change their ways if their employees are getting annoyed by customer service requests which they directly caused.
    Last edited by stasis; 04-23-2010 at 07:11 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    What's Jailbreak? UnknownToaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stasis View Post
    Oh I don't doubt he was annoyed, but hey it's his job, he chose it. It's like the airline baggage people, you have to expect that you are going to be dealing with angry customers. Over the years I have learned when dealing with these things you have to be very blunt and upfront, I have tried being the very nice, apathetic customer and it will never get you anywhere. Also I am sure he may be annoyed because of how many requests and people like me he has to deal with. They removed quite a few very popular apps, I am sure I am not the only one demanding a refund. But that is not my fault, nor his, but that is what his company has chosen to do and he is the first line of defense that has to deal with it. That is not my fault, Apple needs to change their ways if their employees are getting annoyed by customer service requests which they directly caused.
    Yeah, makes sense, but I'd still probably try to reason a little more while ranting to produce more conversation and avoid directly insulting him or being too disrespectful, not that you were just calling him an *** and pinning it all on him, but he just seemed like he really wanted to help at first, not just oh great, more **** on my plate. Who wants it? I'd probably try to get him to feel a little more compassion and get on level with him so hed be inspired to help me, not just hope I'll stop yelling at him. Again, I'm not saying your approach was god awful, I understand it.

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