Apple

Originally Posted by confucious

I have explained why I think stealing is the correct term - why do you think otherwise!

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

Makes no difference what you say, MY understanding of stealing falls under the same category as piracy. It is not yours because you simply didn't Pay for it.

I believe the factual evidence that clearly shows that it is NOT the correct term carries more weight than someone who inexplicably chooses to ignore such evidence. What you feel/think/believe is irrelevant. You've been presented with the facts, from multiple sources, all of which prove both you wrong (one of which is the Oxford English dictionary, Confucious, which you would know if you bothered to look up the refering to terms.)

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

I disagree entirely.. I don't understand why it matters whether or not it is tangible.

It matters because something actually has to actually exist physically for something to be physically taken. If I buy a game, that comes on, say, a disc, and you come into my house and run off with that, that's 100% theft; you've physically taken a tangible item, completely depriving me of it. If you go online and download an iso, which is usually a copy of what someone somewhere bought and dumped the contents of, that's a violation of the copyright. However, if you made copies of the disc that you took in the first scenario and upload them for others, then you're guilty of both theft and copyright infringement. Again, two separate concepts, both in language, as well as in the legal sense.

Originally Posted by alanjf

I believe the factual evidence that clearly shows that it is NOT the correct term carries more weight than someone who inexplicably chooses to ignore such evidence. What you feel/think/believe is irrelevant. You've been presented with the facts, from multiple sources, all of which prove both you wrong (one of which is the Oxford English dictionary, Confucious, which you would know if you bothered to look up the refering to terms.)

It matters because something actually has to actually exist physically for something to be physically taken. If I buy a game, that comes on, say, a disc, and you come into my house and run off with that, that's 100% theft; you've physically taken a tangible item, completely depriving me of it. If you go online and download an iso, which is usually a copy of what someone somewhere bought and dumped the contents of, that's a violation of the copyright. However, if you made copies of the disc that you took in the first scenario and upload them for others, then you're guilty of both theft and copyright infringement. Again, two separate concepts, both in language, as well as in the legal sense.

I've already had this argument and to be honest I'm a little brunt out... Ha I still do not agree. You have some very good points just like everybody else which is why I said my understanding is different.

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

I've already had this argument and to be honest I'm a little brunt out... Ha I still do not agree. You have some very good points just like everybody else which is why I said my understanding is different.

You still don't get it. Your understanding has been proven to be flawed. But by all means, keep on believing whatever you wish to believe. Definitions and facts be damned.

Originally Posted by znbl

You still don't get it. Your understanding has been proven to be flawed. But by all means, keep on believing whatever you wish to believe. Definitions and facts be damned.

That's what I'm saying bro!
(sarcasm implied)

I don't think it was 100% proven one way or the other actually...

Originally Posted by Simon

I don't think it was 100% proven one way or the other actually...

Might I ask what part of any of the definitions from any of the sources submitted to not outline the correct meanings?

Originally Posted by Simon

I don't think it was 100% proven one way or the other actually...

You have got to be kidding me. How many more sources need to be cited? There is nothing unclear about the fact that the act of stealing (theft) and copyright infringement are two different things. Would you mind stating what more is needed or what aspect you might not understand?

It'd be wise to not resurrect an argument because we keep going around and around. As I stated earlier, I'm burnt out with this whole debate. Lol

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

It'd be wise to not resurrect an argument because we keep going around and around. As I stated earlier, I'm burnt out with this whole debate. Lol

And what exactly is preventing you from going and taking a rest or whatever you need to do? Why do you feel it's necessary to halt and entire thread just for you? This isn't an oral debate where everyone remains in the same room.

Nothing more needs to be said, you obviously havent read and understood any of the posts or links I provided before in my discussion with znbl. I get what he was saying and have read all the definitions and stick by my belief that they are up for interpretation. It is not as black and white as some of you are making it out to be. If you google this discussion you will see this is not the first (or will it be the last) debate about whether or not the word theft can be applied to things such as app piracy.

In any case when I first used the word theft did anyone not understand what I was trying to say? Arguing the exact definition of a word saying it has been used improperly does not take away the fact that everyone understood what it meant in the context of my sentence. Isn't that what language is all about? Communication? Language is always evolving, 100 years from now some words we use may mean something completely different. At the end of the day who really cares what the exact definition of a word is as long as those words are understood.

znbl himself conceded that this type of wording can happen in common speech as he put it. And as I said before this is a forum, one about idevices. Common speech is the language of choice here

Originally Posted by Simon

Nothing more needs to be said, you obviously havent read and understood any of the posts or links I provided before in my discussion with znbl. I get what he was saying and have read all the definitions and stick by my belief that they are up for interpretation. It is not as black and white as some of you are making it out to be. If you google this discussion you will see this is not the first (or will it be the last) debate about whether or not the word theft can be applied to things such as app piracy.

In any case when I first used the word theft did anyone not understand what I was trying to say? Arguing the exact definition of a word saying it has been used improperly does not take away the fact that everyone understood what it meant in the context of my sentence. Isn't that what language is all about? Communication? Language is always evolving, 100 years from now some words we use may mean something completely different. At the end of the day who really cares what the exact definition of a word is as long as those words are understood.

znbl himself conceded that this type of wording can happen in common speech as he put it. And as I said before this is a forum, one about idevices. Common speech is the language of choice here

With all due respect, I do not find the actual definitions of terms like "theft" / "steal" to be ambiguous. They clearly refer to the act of taking. I also find the definition of making a copy of something to also be unambiguous. The definitions of theft / stealing is not a definition that has changed, it has always referred to to the act of taking something which does not belong to you.

The problem is, computers, as we known them today, are very recent. It's clear a lot of people have trouble understanding the concept of copying something in a virtual sense. In the physical world, it is not really possible to make perfect copies of most things, where as a computer can. The concept of copying might not be new; in the physical world, in order to make a copy, you first have to obtain the source (e.g., by taking it from somewhere) before you can proceed to make the copy. With computers, that step doesn't exist; a copy is simply just made. You only need click on a link or drag & drop from one place to another. This is why the reoccurring theme in this thread about copying-is-not-taking comes in.

I understand there will always be concepts in this world that one person or another will not understand. Not everyone can understand advanced math, comprehend theoretically physics, or how to change axel gear ratio of a 4x4 truck. I can accept that. I only wanted to help.

And there will always be people in this world that nit pick about every little thing.

Originally Posted by Simon

And there will always be people in this world that nit pick about every little thing.

This was never about nit picking, not for me at least. It was about correctly a misconception. Maybe you don't care about the constant degradation of language in out society, but some of us do.

Fight the good fight then bud.

FYI being condescending like this:

I understand there will always be concepts in this world that one person or another will not understand. Not everyone can understand advanced math, comprehend theoretically physics, or how to change axel gear ratio of a 4x4 truck. I can accept that. I only wanted to help.

isn't going to help the degradation of society, language or otherwise.


As for this discussion, it has been allowed to go on for too long, it is not on topic. So please everyone either keep to the topic of the thread or do not post.

Man I love mods
Especially simon.

Originally Posted by Simon

Fight the good fight then bud.

FYI being condescending like this:

I understand there will always be concepts in this world that one person or another will not understand. Not everyone can understand advanced math, comprehend theoretically physics, or how to change axel gear ratio of a 4x4 truck. I can accept that. I only wanted to help.

isn't going to help the degradation of society, language or otherwise.

I in no way intended to be condescending. I was only pointing out that there are many complex concepts out there that many people do not understand. I was not attempting to diminish anyone, and I do not claim to be the wisest person who ever lived; I know there are a lot of people out there who are a hell of a lot smarter than I. Again, I only wanted to help.

Originally Posted by alanjf

I in no way intended to be condescending. I was only pointing out that there are many complex concepts out there that many people do not understand. I was not attempting to diminish anyone, and I do not claim to be the wisest person who ever lived; I know there are a lot of people out there who are a hell of a lot smarter than I. Again, I only wanted to help.

Not a prob then
We shall leave it at that and have the thread go back on topic.

Lol dead thread now.

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

Right, but you said piracy technically cannot be called theft?

First of all, lets start using the right terms, and using them correctly (something several participants in this thread appear to have trouble with.) Piracy is defined as "an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea." It also refers to raiding of places, pillaging, raping, and even outright murder. Piracy isn't quite the romantic swashbuckling adventuring as often portrayed by Hollywood, but the term as it has been applied to the online exchange of files is little more than a typical VICE to create an artificial taboo. If you want to encounter real pirated software, then look no further than the countless countries where "vendors" are selling stolen copies of Windows, Call of Duty, SAW VII Blu-Rays, or Death Magnetic CDs.

The proper term to use is copyright infringement, because that's precisely what you are doing when you are making a copy AND distributing it without authorization. Note that the act of downloading itself is not distribution. The truth of the matter that is often twisted completely is that downloading a file no more violates copyright than recording a song from the radio. Even so, I do believe artists who are respectful of their audiences should be compensated for their work; I am not advocating anything to the contrary, lest there be doubt of my intentions here.

Originally Posted by mmaboi21

You say it's copyright infringement(which I agree) To me, it's the exact same thing. Theft and copyright infringement do require the move of property rather it be tangible or digital, copy or not.

Would you care to explain why recording music from the radio, and why recording a television show or film as they air, in some form, are considered to be acceptable practices (and in most western countries that I've seen, perfectly legal - in the U.S. this was most notably established in the BETA MAX case concerning exactly this), but downloading the exact same content, giving you the exact same end result - either way you'll have a copy varying quality of said content - is some how different and thus deemed to be wrong? Or is this simply what most people have been conditioned to believe?

Not sure what dictionary you use but the second definition of piracy in the Oxford English Dictionary is "The unauthorised or reproduction of another's work"