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  • "Software Should Have Screws:" saurik's TED Talk
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReKCp9K_Jqw[/ame]


    Jay "saurik" Freeman, the creator of Cydia and Winterboard, gave a talk at an independent TED event in California on the fundamental philosophy behind jailbreaking. Given on Binary Day 10/10/10 at the inaugural TEDxAmericanRiviera in Santa Barbara, his talk compared jailbreakers with people who like to tinker with their cars.

    In a riff on the old open-source "hood welded shut" analogy, Jay noted how people like to customize their cars, adding things from air-fresheners and radar detectors to custom rims. He also referenced the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act that states that car manufacturers can't void car owners' warranties just by adding third-party accessories. And he explained how phone owners - like car owners - "bond" with their devices, allowing it to "become an external representation of self." However, as we all know, Apple's OS "jails" your experience inside apps. As Apple famously says, "there's an app for that:" their belief is that anything you could want to do with a mobile device can and should be done with an app. Jay explained to his audience why this is not so.

    Some of the most useful added functionality that is available to rooted Android devices and jailbroken iPhones, Jay observed, does not come from apps but from tweaks: extensions like custom launchers, dialers, and widgets. In a post on Hacker News, Jay aired his frustration with the argument that Apple should just open up the App Store. "In a future where Apple did exactly what you are asking them to do," Jay wrote, "almost nothing will have changed: people will still need to jailbreak their phones and developers will still be writing and distributing all of this cool software using Cydia."

    According to saurik, rather than pushing Apple to open up the Store, we should be pushing to get them to open up their device, and to keep Macs open. "Until users are able to install whatever software they wish on the hardware that they own," he writes, "we will not truly have won back any of our freedom."
    This article was originally published in forum thread: "Software Should Have Screws:" saurik's TED Talk started by Paul Daniel Ash View original post
    Comments 48 Comments
    1. mohaas05's Avatar
      mohaas05 -
      The way I see it:

      If you want to tweak your phone, and want an 'open' platform, then use Android. It's exactly that.


      But if you want a more straightforward, stable, secure system, at the cost of some of that openness, then iOS is the platform for you.
    1. Raptors's Avatar
      Raptors -
      i don't care, i want that shirt he's wearing
    1. Rokesomesmeefer's Avatar
      Rokesomesmeefer -
      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy apps. You can use an iPhone without buying anything. Everyone pre-2.0 did. Hell, you can get all free apps too. Don't forget HTML web apps were the norm before the app store too. The only reason you would not want to use the App Store is if you wanted to circumvent its policies.
      Are you a moron or is English your second language? Perhaps what I said was too hard for you to understand?

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Yes there maybe shady developers, but Apple makes sure they can't do anything to harm you. That's the whole reasoning behind the review process.
      And yet the review process still allows shady developers to get through.

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Now this is the part where you're starting to get absurd. I'd trust Apple with my credit card information because Apple is a large company, and holds itself liable for it. Who would you rather provide access to? A company that actually is in the public eye and is subject to strict regulation, or an individual who can easily take it and run? It's not a subjective question, It's damn common sense.
      It's not a question of taking my info and running. It's a matter of fact that large corporations have already been proven to have crap data security policies. And when your financial info is stolen from a large corporation, you have a much smaller chance of getting financial retribution against a corporation than against "an individual who can easily take it and run". Ever tried suing a large corporation? Ever tried suing Apple?! Good luck with that.

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Apple doesn't care much for your opinion because unlike you, Apple actually has marketing experts who know the most profitable way to sell their product. Unless you're suggesting that you can create and sell a product better than they can, your arguments pretty much fall flat.
      Hmm, well it seemed like you were finally beginning to understand...

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Also, an open system is definitely not more secure than a closed one. Obviously you've been breathing the spew open source zealots pour out because it just couldn't be farther from the truth. Apple is the only one working with the code, why should they have to reveal it to the whole world? More eyes on the code means greater chances of it being circumvented.
      ...until you reiterated this asinine statement.

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Even Android can hardly be called open source because the only people allowed to touch it are Google developers.
      I never said Android was open source. Android's primary failure is that the mobile carriers screw it oblivion before putting it on their phones.

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      Of course, if Apple thought it would make sense to open up iOS, they probably would have already done so. But even though they haven't, you don't have the right to demand it, because Apple has never promised or advertised anything of the sort that would require it. Obviously when you bought an iOS device, you were fully aware of this fact.
      It doesn't make sense, from a profit stand point, for Apple to open up the platform. I thought I had already made that pretty clear in a previous post. Are you sure English isn't your second language? Maybe it's third?

      Quote Originally Posted by mohaas05 View Post
      The way I see it:

      If you want to tweak your phone, and want an 'open' platform, then use Android. It's exactly that.


      But if you want a more straightforward, stable, secure system, at the cost of some of that openness, then iOS is the platform for you.
      The way I see it, if you want a more straightforward, stable, secure system and you want to tweak your phone, get an iPhone and jailbreak it.
    1. kuhndsn's Avatar
      kuhndsn -
      Some good points but also a bit misleading with ref to the Act. If u add third party software or enhancements to
      Your veh it can be voided.
    1. Rokesomesmeefer's Avatar
      Rokesomesmeefer -
      Quote Originally Posted by kuhndsn View Post
      Some good points but also a bit misleading with ref to the Act. If u add third party software or enhancements to
      Your veh it can be voided.
      It's things like using a non-OEM replacement air filter or replacing the battery with a different brand than what the manufacturer installed that cannot void your warranty. Now if you go and change the intake manifold, add a turbo, toss on some headers, etc..., you can kiss your warranty goodbye.
    1. raduga's Avatar
      raduga -
      Am I misunderstanding something here?
      It seems to me Saurik agrees with Apple's overall strategy:

      "Users should get screwed."
    1. athleticswimmer's Avatar
      athleticswimmer -
      wow Saurik stated everything out really good! nice job!
    1. sadsamurai's Avatar
      sadsamurai -
      mohaas05's argument fails because, while I don't expect Apple to open the iOS, they also don't have the right to tell me what I can do with the product once I bought it. It is my bloody phone and used it, abuse it or modify it any way, shape or form I want. Just like a car manufacturer can't tell me what parts I can install, replace or modify on their product and most importantly where I can buy said parts, Apple can't tell me shite about where I can get my apps. One thing they can do, the same thing that automakers do, is spell out in their warranty policy what mods will void the warranty.
      Had it not for being able to jailbreak it I would have never ever bought an iPhone and, by looking at the success of Cydia, it seems there are literally millions of peps around the world who feel the same way.
      So the helll with S. Jobs, he is just a bit too controlling and money hungry.
    1. NakedFaerie's Avatar
      NakedFaerie -
      Quote Originally Posted by Doran View Post
      These are all well thought out comments (well most of them anyway) But just remember that at the end of the day, it's your device and you should be able to do with it what you want...

      In 2007 when the first iPhone was released there wasn't a lot you could do with it, that's when "hackers" thought it would be a great idea to be able to install games and tweaks on it. A year later we got the app store. In 2008 we finally got 3G on our iPhones and now we wanted MMS and the "hackers" did that too and a lot more the next thing you know we have an iPhone 3GS, now we have the speed to do even more.

      2010 iPhone 4, iOS 4 and it has all the things most of us have had sence iOS 3. I think it funny how Apple comes up with all this stuff AFTER the jailbreak community and the "hackers" have already done it....
      Most of the things iOS4+ bring us we've had since the start.
      I got the iPhone 2G with 1.14 on it. I had MMS and Cydia back then. I remember when Backgrounder first came out. It was awesome. I think that was way back in firmware 2.0? So it took Apple another 2 major firmwares to finally introduce multitasking and MMS.
      Everything Apple introduces has already been in Cydia for ages. All they do is steal ideas and the wants from hackers.
      If it wasnt for the hackers and the jailbreakers then the iPhone would've been dead just after the 3G model came out.

      I'm waiting for the next big thing from Cydia. then wait a year or 2 and you will see it part of iOS. Apple are THIEVES and cant think for themselves.

      Does the original dev get any credit or compensation for Apple stealing their ideas? The original dev of Backgrounder should get a royalty for iOS4 and multitasking as he/they did it first.
      The devs of SwirlyMMS should also get royalties for MMS support in iOS.
      Just 2 examples why Apple SUCK.
    1. game.over's Avatar
      game.over -
      mohaas05: Techie people just don't seem to get it.

      The vast majority of iPhone users don't care about custom launchers or dialers or widgets or openness or any of that. They want a smartphone that does what they want, and does it well, which is exactly what Apple has provided them. Yes, it's closed, but that also means its more stable and secure, since the end user cannot compromise the OS.



      YOU ARE 100% CORRECT mohaas05 AND THATS EXACTLY WHY ITS CLOSED AND LET IT STAY CLOSED FOR EVER UNTIL THESE THIRD PARTY DEVELOPERS DO THINGS CORRECTLY...


      1.) IPHONE 3GS 32GB (JAILED) = EVERYTHING FAST AND STABLE AND SECURE.

      2.) IPHONE 3GS (JAILBROKEN) = EVERYTHING SLOW AS HELL, UNSTABLE AND DEFINITELY NOT SECURE ESPECIALLY WITH THAT OPEN SSH THING, REMEMBER THAT HACKER THAT HACKED INSIDE ALOT OF T MOBILE USERES WITH THAT SSH STUFF? SURE YOU CAN CHANGE THE PASSWORD BUT NOT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT.


      EXAMPLE ...

      APPLE STORE = FAST, NO RELOADS, NO CRASHES

      CYDIA = RELOADS THAT TAKE FOREVER,CRASHES,SLOW ETC.

      I LOVE CYDIA AND I DONT KNOW WHAT I WILL DO WITH OUT IT...I LOVE THE FACT THAT JAILBROKEN I AM FREE AND CAN TWEAK ANYTHING BUT AT THE SAME TIME THAT BRINGS A PRICE AND IS AN UNSTABLE OS.

      SO IN CONCLUSION I AGREE WITH mohaas05 ..

      WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY IS THAT IF YOU GONNA DO SOMTHING PLEASE DO IT RIGHT...IF YOU GONNA HACK THE IPHONE AND CREATE CYDIA, IF YOU GONNA CREATE MULTIFLOW, IF YOU GONNA CREATE (WINTERBOARD) ETC.. DONT RELEASE IT UNTIL YOU KNOW ITS STABLE AND DO NOT SUCK ALL YOUR MEMORY UP...SURE IM GONNA DOWNLOAD IT...OFCOURSE WE GET BORED OF THE SAME THING BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE ARE SAD CUZ WE SEE ITS NOT HIGH QUALITY..JAILED = blu-ray 1920x1080p AND JAILBROKEN = DVD 640x480 ..u get it? AND LIKE I SAID I LOVE CYDIA I LOVE MULTIFLOW I LOVE WINTERBOARD AND I CANT BE WITH OUT IT BUT DAM THEY BE MESSING MY OS UP...100MB OF FREE RAM? ARE YOU SERIOUS? ON A 3GS ? REALLY? AND ALL APPS CLOSED? WTF? BATTERY DRAINS WITH THAT ULTRASN0W WICH I LOVE TOO BUT DAMM....COME ON MAN...DO YOU PEOPLE FEEL ME? DO YALL AGREE OR YOU DONT AGREE? NO WONDER APPLE IS A CLOSED SOURCE...AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE (CLOSED= STABLE,SECURE,FAST) AND OPENED = (ALL MESSED UP)
    1. floppy_joe's Avatar
      floppy_joe -
      Jobs said it best. You dont like it, return it. Take it another step. You don't like it, don't buy it.

      If the "oppressed" are really so many then if they stop voluntarily buying a device that they know shackles them then the "oppressor" will eventually have to change. Ok so it is our piece of hardware, so we can do whatever we want with it, fine go ahead, but don't cry or try to tell the company who created it that they have to be open to it. Dont buy it. They gave you exactly what they were selling an Idevice with certain built in apps and a store to get more. That's what you knowingly bought. They delivered to you exactly what they were selling, you were ok with it.

      The lady who bought the hot damn coffee from mcdonalds knew that it was hot. She burns herself and shame on mcdonalds. The only thing worse would be if she bought the hot coffee planning to burn herself and then complain about it.
      You know I had a choice of 2 houses. One was in an open neighborhood and one was in a gated community. I don't agree that a community or associate should be able to tell me what I can or can't do to my house, if u want a sat dish the. Dammit I'll have one. Nevertheless I still go ahead and buy the house in the gated community. Then I crack the gate code and let all my friends in. Now they are all holding yard sales selling their wares and making decent scratch. Then the gate code was patched and now they all stand outside with picket signs claiming there "freedoms" have been taken away. Software should have screws? Well apple agrees thats why they put the screws in their software. We took them out.
    1. hollow0's Avatar
      hollow0 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Rokesomesmeefer View Post
      You know, I'm getting so tired of the "nobody is forcing you blah blah" crap. ********. ********. APPLE IS FORCING YOU TO GET APPS ONLY FROM THE APP STORE. Your statement would only be true if there was a way of installing apps without using an Apple-condemned method of doing so.
      So Steve came up to you with a gun to your head and demanded you to buy an app from the AppStore? Or did he take your finger and forcefully select the one to buy?
    1. hollow0's Avatar
      hollow0 -
      Quote Originally Posted by NakedFaerie View Post
      Most of the things iOS4+ bring us we've had since the start.
      I got the iPhone 2G with 1.14 on it. I had MMS and Cydia back then. I remember when Backgrounder first came out. It was awesome. I think that was way back in firmware 2.0? So it took Apple another 2 major firmwares to finally introduce multitasking and MMS.
      Everything Apple introduces has already been in Cydia for ages. All they do is steal ideas and the wants from hackers.
      If it wasnt for the hackers and the jailbreakers then the iPhone would've been dead just after the 3G model came out.

      I'm waiting for the next big thing from Cydia. then wait a year or 2 and you will see it part of iOS. Apple are THIEVES and cant think for themselves.

      Does the original dev get any credit or compensation for Apple stealing their ideas? The original dev of Backgrounder should get a royalty for iOS4 and multitasking as he/they did it first.
      The devs of SwirlyMMS should also get royalties for MMS support in iOS.
      Just 2 examples why Apple SUCK.
      You're a fool you know that? Do you honestly think apple doesn't think ahead of what's to come on iOS? Swirly MMS should get royalties? For what? MMS is part of every phone and the implementation isn't even the same. And backgrounding? Still not even implemented the same way. What did you expect, for them not to bring multitasking at all to users? You can't get royalties from an OS that does not belong to you.
    1. kenpura's Avatar
      kenpura -
      i will have to agree with the people that said had it not been for jailbreaking, the iphone would have died after the 2nd generation. i could not stand the original iphone. every other phone i've had, i've been able to use custom ringtones, send mms (and not just a lousy picture), customize the wallpaper and many different aspects of a phone. if you guys think that the iphone is perfect the way it is, then you are okay with the idea of conforming. would you be okay if only one style of clothing was made? ONLY one. so let's say that levi's is the only manufacturer of jeans TO ever exist. would you be okay with that? or would you take those jeans and add your own personal touch? people don't like to be the same as each other. naturally, we like to flaunt our individuality and in a nutshell, that is what jailbreaking allows you to do. your argument that if you don't like it, then don't buy it is just stupid. i'm fairly certain that nobody is ever fully satisfied with any one thing they purchase.
    1. elite_jounin's Avatar
      elite_jounin -
      Quote Originally Posted by doran View Post
      2010 iphone 4, ios 4 and it has all the things most of us have had sence ios 3. I think it funny how apple comes up with all this stuff after the jailbreak community and the "hackers" have already done it....
      you my friend are 100% correct! Love this +1:d

      Quote Originally Posted by Jahooba View Post
      Go away, dude. This is the first I've heard this news. Not all of us discover news as soon as it's made.
      Same for me as well, first I heard. Sometimes my job keeps me too busy.
    1. raduga's Avatar
      raduga -
      Quote Originally Posted by floppy_joe View Post
      Jobs said it best. You dont like it, return it. Take it another step. You don't like it, don't buy it.
      Hehehe, that's a good one.

      The policy may be different at an Apple Store (or buying directly from them on the Web (or from another retailer))
      but it's notable that: per the agreement Apple has with most educational institutions,
      most any Apple hardware or software you buy from a university outlet is not returnable.
      Repairable? Sure. If its under warranty or Applecare. Don't like it?

      tough cookies :3

      Shoulda bought it from someplace else (or not bought it at all).
      There must be plenty of occasions where return via throwing the slightly-used-brick in Steve's face is the only recourse.

      If the "oppressed" are really so many then if they stop voluntarily buying a device that they know shackles them then the "oppressor" will eventually have to change. Ok so it is our piece of hardware, so we can do whatever we want with it, fine go ahead, but don't cry or try to tell the company who created it that they have to be open to it. Dont buy it. They gave you exactly what they were selling an Idevice with certain built in apps and a store to get more. That's what you knowingly bought. They delivered to you exactly what they were selling, you were ok with it.

      The lady who bought the hot damn coffee from mcdonalds knew that it was hot. She burns herself and shame on mcdonalds. The only thing worse would be if she bought the hot coffee planning to burn herself and then complain about it.
      You know I had a choice of 2 houses. One was in an open neighborhood and one was in a gated community. I don't agree that a community or associate should be able to tell me what I can or can't do to my house, if u want a sat dish the. Dammit I'll have one. Nevertheless I still go ahead and buy the house in the gated community. Then I crack the gate code and let all my friends in. Now they are all holding yard sales selling their wares and making decent scratch. Then the gate code was patched and now they all stand outside with picket signs claiming there "freedoms" have been taken away. Software should have screws? Well apple agrees thats why they put the screws in their software. We took them out.
      To address the rest:

      "don't like it, don't buy it" is good overall strategy, but sometimes you won't know for sure if you like it until after you've bought it. Sometimes, even if you're not bound by an oppressive contract (like students are) return is more hassle and expense than keeping the damn thing and sucking it up.
      "do like it, but find it annoying, wish it were better, and enjoy whingeing about it online" - is the most common condition with Apple materiel. Welcome to MMi!

      Those who bought one, regret buying it, and will never buy one again are the most logical consumers. Most of them will make a few posts and then disappear.

      Those who bought one, regret buying it, swear they will never buy another and keep doing so again anyway- are illogical consumers but they form the bedrock of our market system. Sites like MMi do a service to the U.S. economy and to western civilization as a whole by catering to the disaffected and dissatisfied consumers who Apple (and by extension, everyone) to keep them just enough happy that they continue to consume. You ought to be thankful for the haters. When Apple-hating Apple-users get the notion they aren't being loved, you get situations like the Tea-party takeover of US congress, and it will end in tears for everyone.

      ___________________________


      [digression into off-topic-rant]

      The McDonald's lady is another thing entirely. You've got consumer expectations of product consistency + consumer safety + consumer stupidity at work.

      Rationally, "hot coffee" should always be regarded as hot, and dangerous. Practically, "hot coffee" from McDonalds is frequently not-so-hot, and depending on the maintenance of equipment, and negligence of workers, may vary considerably.
      The lady got burned because she: didn't expect it would be hot. She had a history of buying coffee that was less than hot, and na´vely expected that consistent poor quality would continue.

      The lady also got burned because: the store she bought it from fixed a coffeemaker that was in poor repair, and possibly set the thermostat incorrectly (such that the end product was >220 degrees, at least briefly). She had not been aware of this change, hadn't predicted it, and wasn't prepared for that.

      If she were smart, she'd expect every single cup of coffee she bought from McDonalds to be potentially >220, and potentially deadly. But most of us aren't so smart, and can get lulled into a false sense of security when crappy vendors routinely provide ~ 150 degree coffee. Many of us don't even realize that coffee could be served at >212, since that's the boiling point. Better science education would help, but it's hard to teach old ladies about phase diagrams and equilibria.

      The biggest reason she got burned (that she could have avoided) was the surprise factor. If you treat everything you drink with caution, superheated coffee won't be so deadly. Warning labels on coffee products may seem pointless to you, but they are probably the best way to protect the general public *from* surprise.

      I say: shame on McDonalds for inconsistently shoddy products that lead to dangerous surprises. Shame on the lady for being surprisable, but not too much shame because the skills she needed to protect herself aren't widely valued enough that our society encourages them.

      Also: thanks to the McDonalds coffee lady for reminding us of the obvious, and thanks to McDonalds for the warning labels that make us LOL and roll our eyes, but provide a safety net for people ignorant of physics.
    1. floppy_joe's Avatar
      floppy_joe -
      Wow, like I said. Don't like how they do it then don't buy it. You did, you don't like so you won't (apple knows you will) buy again. Period.
      I absolutely knew what I was buying. I like it, it does what it claims to do. However I like to play around, add new things
      And customize, unfortunately it did bit come with that. So I decided to jb it. Now to say that the hardware should still be under warranty is debatable and Saurik makes sense in that note. But talking about not being truly free is ridiculous. Don't buy it. In another report iPhone users have the highest credit card debt, and of course the credit card companies forced you to use it. Tell your school that u dint like a certain class, professor, the science department or the landscaping and demand they let you do the landscaping set up your own classes and let anyone come in to profess. Then say hey u still owe me my degree.
      Ok that analogy was weak I better go to work now. Analogies are never perfect but help point things out.
    1. iPhoneThereforeIAm's Avatar
      iPhoneThereforeIAm -
      I'm firmly in the JB'ing camp - but there are a few things that haven't been said yet.
      While the iPhone may be the buyer's as a piece of hardware, we don't actually buy the OS software.
      The only things we buy are the hardware and apps - the OS is effectively free.

      You can't blame a company with a product like the iPhone for wanting to protect its interests.
      And in fairness to them, they've always cultured a reputation for flawless functionality across their whole product range - long before the iPhone was ever mooted.
      At the end of the day, locking things down has kept Apple profits stratospheric - which allows them to stay ahead of the competition by being at the front of the development curve ... which means a better iPhone for the consumer.
      Huge sales also help profitability ratios through economies of scale - which makes iPhones cheaper.
      It's also quite likely that were it not for the iPhone's awesomeness, many owners would never have even considered a smart-phone.
      And you can never knock a company that creates demand, because that creates wealth and boosts the economy.
    1. Rokesomesmeefer's Avatar
      Rokesomesmeefer -
      Quote Originally Posted by hollow0 View Post
      So Steve came up to you with a gun to your head and demanded you to buy an app from the AppStore? Or did he take your finger and forcefully select the one to buy?
      Why is it so hard for people around here to understand basic English? Did I say I was forced to buy apps? No fucktard, I said that Apple only allows you to buy apps FROM THEM. It is implied that I want to buy apps, otherwise what the hell would be the point of buying a smartphone?
    1. floppy_joe's Avatar
      floppy_joe -
      Lol because I like that word. Would love to use it in words with friends