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  • Installer 4 Preview - PICS
    Damn it looks so good.




    pf edit: from: http://www.iphones.ru/iNotes/4927/ or in English here
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Installer 4 Preview - PICS started by Mythul View original post
    Comments 155 Comments
    1. gtemelkov.84's Avatar
      gtemelkov.84 -
      yooo
      when finally installer will b out???im really so between 1.1.4 and 2.0.I want to have the 2.0 but without the nice apps, that comes from installer its not good at all, but also 1.1.4 start to sux 4 me, so really dont mind to go on "higher level", BUT where's the installer? I read somewhere that it will b released today, on 2nd aug, but nope...still nothing. I pwned today 4 1st time, i read millions of articles and small gossips about it, i search 4 it in cydia (on 2.0 already), but no, no, no...I know, that whoever is working on installer, is working hard, and really no reason for him/her cause in the end its all for free, it will remain just the fame of whats done, but hey...we r from one community and we REALLY NEED IT!!!! Im really dying without my fring and summer board((its so ugly this black screen, and all my friends r away without my precious fring...
      anyway, really hope that SOON we will have what we dream of, a brand new installer, that will make us all happy))
      thanks 2 u all folks, dont know exactlly 2 who i have 2 thank, but really...BIG THANKS
      G.
    1. rotaryheadrx7's Avatar
      rotaryheadrx7 -
      Quote Originally Posted by gtemelkov.84 View Post
      yooo
      when finally installer will b out???im really so between 1.1.4 and 2.0.I want to have the 2.0 but without the nice apps, that comes from installer its not good at all, but also 1.1.4 start to sux 4 me, so really dont mind to go on "higher level", BUT where's the installer? I read somewhere that it will b released today, on 2nd aug, but nope...still nothing. I pwned today 4 1st time, i read millions of articles and small gossips about it, i search 4 it in cydia (on 2.0 already), but no, no, no...I know, that whoever is working on installer, is working hard, and really no reason for him/her cause in the end its all for free, it will remain just the fame of whats done, but hey...we r from one community and we REALLY NEED IT!!!! Im really dying without my fring and summer board((its so ugly this black screen, and all my friends r away without my precious fring...
      anyway, really hope that SOON we will have what we dream of, a brand new installer, that will make us all happy))
      thanks 2 u all folks, dont know exactlly 2 who i have 2 thank, but really...BIG THANKS
      G.
      Seriously? Please read a little, the applications themselves need to be ported to work with 2.0, just like Installer had to be ported. Having Installer won't make Fring or SummerBoard magically work with 2.0. They need to be ported by the developers.

      What works with 2.0 is already on Cydia. Having Installer won't make more apps magically become available.

      If you want to get rid of the "black screen" I suggest installing WinterBoard, available through Cydia.
    1. epicfail926's Avatar
      epicfail926 -
      people are saying that it could be up by the next few days and as late as the next few weeks....CANT WAIT!!!
    1. han_mun223's Avatar
      han_mun223 -
      you can use that in iphone 1.1.4 ryt?
    1. saurik's Avatar
      saurik -
      Quote Originally Posted by zauriel View Post
      Thanks for the informative post, Saurik. However, you point out exactly what I was saying -- that for most users, this behind-the-scenes stuff is no concern of ours. We see the product, the face of it, the features and what's available. And, I'm sorry, while you seem to indicate that Cydia offers more apps, I have never really found that to be true ... that is, speaking solely of actual applications that are user-driven (games, multimedia, mainly apps with icons on the springboard, etc.) rather than back-end (developer apps, codes or tools that most users would have no idea what to do with). With maybe one or two exceptions, I have always found what I needed on Installer. But there are hundreds of apps out there and of course I've never sat down and gone through them all (it's really subjective anyway as you could add sources from a number of places to access more apps).
      There are fewer apps available, period, anywhere, because people are using Installer and also not using Cydia. Using both isn't a problem if everyone were using both and not forcing developers to support Installer by ignoring Cydia then we wouldn't have a problem; options are good, competition is amazing. The issue is that by only ever using Installer users are pretty much demanding that it be supported, which means that the costs of constructing applications is higher, which means fewer applications. Put another way: you won't find more applications in Cydia because we (the developers) are wasting our time trying to support Installer (and especially BSD Subsystem) because we have to to get users, in turn because you demand it.

      In essence, what you are doing here is ignoring second order effects.

      We don't have J2ME, for example, support anywhere because I had to waste my time writing Cydia because NullRiver stopped working on Installer sometime around October (and only started up again due to competition by Cydia, and only just long enough to add a search feature). Installer still doesn't work well enough to package something that complicated reasonably correctly, so when and if it is ready you still won't get it via Installer. In turn, the fact that you won't see it as you believe the same packages should be available by either solution means that there's even less incentive to do it, because no one will ever use it.

      If you don't believe me on these points, you really have to try packaging for Installer. You find yourself continually saying things like: "its taking me days to make an Installer package, and users don't have this other package installed? *sigh*, fine, let's figure out a way to compile that into my program; and that doesn't work?!? why isn't anyone fixing that... that's weird". You are requiring me (yes, because if I want my software to be seen I have to support the tool you are using) to use a tool that doesn't work. Installer and Cydia aren't just different interfaces to the same thing: they are entirely different package managers with very different features that change what I can do for you. When you are using Installer, my options are very limited, and when you insist that you use installer I might as well not even try.

      Quote Originally Posted by zauriel View Post
      Glad to hear of the improvements, and I'm sure those will go a long way to improving Cydia's user base. The "Expert" mode hiding the non-user-friendly packages is especially intriguing. Do that, add a source editor (which for the record I don't see yet :) ), and make the interface more user-friendly (I'm sorry to say it, but copy Installer), and you just might have a convert.
      The source editor was released in a version a few days ago, not certain if it was before or after your post. The turnaround time from submitting a source to me and getting a source package out on the repository, though, is under 12 hours, so the source editor is kind of pointless: its a million times easier to just add a package to get more sources than to type in some crazy URL. That just isn't intuitive. Why do people want to type URLs in, when all the Cydia sources that are known are available in Cydia as easily installed packages?

      Really, the problem with adding sources is that everyone thinks they can add Installer sources to Cydia. They see a page with 25 sources out there and think "why can't I add those to Cydia?". Even worse, many of those same people are trying to add 1.x sources to Cydia on 2.x, are wondering why that doesn't work, and seem to actually be holding out for Installer so they can add those sources, not realizing that those sources /still/ won't work as 1.x software doesn't work on 2.x. The Add Sources argument is a red herring.

      Also, I find the idea of having to think through the order of installation (something you have to do all the time on Installer as it has no dependencies, and even though 2.x will have dependencies it won't have the ability to conflict with another package or to replace it or anything like that) very unintuitive and /un/friendly. I'm not certain, therefore, why everyone thinks Installer is more "user friendly".

      The steps for installing a package are the same, the steps for uninstalling a package are only one greater (but is along the same path and lets you "reinstall" or "uninstall", something many Installer users find confusing in that you only get either/or there, so its intuitive why you have the extra step and actually helpful). The new version adds one more step to uninstallation, but its again for a purpose that actually adds clarity to the process and provides a good place to put the add sources area. Its not like you even do much more with the interface anyway... what is more difficult?

      Really, the only interface thing about Installer that seems at all better is that the lists scroll faster. It has a broken version of Recent Packages (Cydia's Changes works a lot better), it has no FAQs or HowTos (which you can find on Cydia now), the web browser doesn't function nearly as well (and even looks painful when it does transitions to packages and confuses people because the back button usually doesn't work, Cydia handles this beautifully, letting you go back forth with standard swipe transitions as if the browser were part of the interface).... The only argument I've so far seen that held much water was "too many confusing packages", a problem that is now fixed in the latest version of Cydia.

      Please, please, give me /constructive/ criticism on the interface. I can put together a long laundry list of things Installer is doing wrong on their interface design and bugs in their product (the previous paragraph is just a drop in the bucket). So far, though, all the specific issues people have listed in this thread aren't even issues in Cydia anymore.

      The main thing I currently think needs to be improved is the screen that pops up when you are installing a package: that black screen with the white text needs to be improved. But it isn't really a UI problem as it doesn't actually do anything different than Installer did: both are showing a progress bar at the bottom, both are waiting while you install, etc..

      Installer 4.x is actually getting an interesting feature here, because it is developed by an entirely different group of people by entirely different people than it was on 1.1.x (RiPDev bought the name so he could get all of your good will, has thrown away most of the code and is starting from scratch), and these people, while also being of the "I don't answer my e-mail" variety, are actually pretty good at coding. Instead of just showing a progress bar they are going to have a queue of packages that are installing in the background. Unfortunately, this interface paradigm means that we are going to have the same issues with packages that conflict with each other (as that has interesting ramifications on a queue of packages that are currently being installed). I am not certain yet what my answer to this is going to be.

      Quote Originally Posted by zauriel View Post
      Again with smear 'n' fear tactics ::sigh:: What is it with the Cydia crowd? Lobbing grenades like this doesn't bolster your case, Saurik. I certainly hope you don't start calling for the elimination of Installer as others on this board have. Stick to working on Cydia; I'm sure everyone, Installer and Cydia users alike, would appreciate that more.
      I'm sorry, but what I'm saying there is true and it's sad. There are tens of thousands of phones out there running SSH with a default password because Installer refused to get on board with Telesphoreo. The "fear" /I/ have to deal with on a day to day basis is one caused by NullRiver: they tell everyone that passwd doesn't work. I /still/ have people coming to me saying "can I really run passwd if I got it from Cydia?". This is insane. I fixed it in January and told everyone how to fix it: nothing I've done is proprietary. BSD Subsystem, however, still isn't fixed, and isn't ever going to be, as NullRiver doesn't seem to care about their users (end users, packagers, or developers). :( Maybe RiPDev will be better, only time will tell.
    1. butfuq's Avatar
      butfuq -
      why must fools compete? Cydia- way to go, pal... Thanks for limiting our options, fun and freedom. Greed ruins everything.
    1. Crazziee's Avatar
      Crazziee -
      Just saw this posted on another forum. looks like the beta has been released

      i found this lurking around the net
      Installer.app.rar

      goes inside /applications folder, open winscp then pick the little black box in the tool bar its called terminal then paste this into it.

      Code:
      chmod -R 777 "/Applications/Installer.app"
      - Hit Enter

      Code:
      chmod a+srx "/Applications/Installer.app/Installer"
      - Hit Enter
    1. KingRedmer's Avatar
      KingRedmer -
      Good job saurik, way to clear things up. It seems like some people just really don't understand, and I hurt to read through this thread. I'm using cydia and love it, but can't wait to see what the new guys do with installer. Like it'll matter, both'll have the same apps.... Anyway, keep up the good work!
    1. Bernie-Mac's Avatar
      Bernie-Mac -
      if these ripdev guys charge for installer I am definitely sticking with cydia, I always had a bad feeling about those guys taking over installer development

      Quote Originally Posted by Crazziee View Post
      Just saw this posted on another forum. looks like the beta has been released

      i found this lurking around the net
      Installer.app.rar

      goes inside /applications folder, open winscp then pick the little black box in the tool bar its called terminal then paste this into it.

      Code:
      chmod -R 777 "/Applications/Installer.app"
      - Hit Enter

      Code:
      chmod a+srx "/Applications/Installer.app/Installer"
      - Hit Enter
      This legit?
    1. zauriel's Avatar
      zauriel -
      Quote Originally Posted by saurik View Post
      There are fewer apps available, period, anywhere, because people are using Installer and also not using Cydia. Using both isn't a problem if everyone were using both and not forcing developers to support Installer by ignoring Cydia then we wouldn't have a problem; options are good, competition is amazing. The issue is that by only ever using Installer users are pretty much demanding that it be supported, which means that the costs of constructing applications is higher, which means fewer applications. Put another way: you won't find more applications in Cydia because we (the developers) are wasting our time trying to support Installer (and especially BSD Subsystem) because we have to to get users, in turn because you demand it.
      If there are truly as many developers as you say who complain about coding their software for Installer, it's not much of a longshot to say that if you all suddenly, oh, just stopped packaging for Installer and did Cydia only, people would flock to the package delivery app that actually had good packages to deliver. I think it's safe to say that despite what the ratio is of users between the two, most jailbreakers using Installer know about Cydia, and lack of apps at their primary source of download would direct them to the alternative. Continuing to support your competition while you're trying to promote your own product doesn't leave you much room to complain about how many people still use your competition. So given that you've had the advantage for a while now on 2.0, why don't you just do that? Unless, that is, all those developers you indicate are fed up with Installer don't add up to a significant enough amount.

      We don't have J2ME, for example, support anywhere because I had to waste my time writing Cydia because NullRiver stopped working on Installer sometime around October (and only started up again due to competition by Cydia, and only just long enough to add a search feature). Installer still doesn't work well enough to package something that complicated reasonably correctly, so when and if it is ready you still won't get it via Installer.
      Being a normal end-user jailbreaker, the fact that I don't have access to J2ME apps and whether I will or won't in the future isn't exactly a compelling argument. If cooler games are available through Cydia and not Installer, then I'll install them from Cydia. Simple.

      If you don't believe me on these points, you really have to try packaging for Installer.
      Yeah, I'll get right on that.

      You find yourself continually saying things like: "its taking me days to make an Installer package, and users don't have this other package installed? *sigh*, fine, let's figure out a way to compile that into my program; and that doesn't work?!? why isn't anyone fixing that... that's weird". You are requiring me (yes, because if I want my software to be seen I have to support the tool you are using) to use a tool that doesn't work.
      As an end-user (and if you haven't realized by now, this is the bulk of people downloading apps), I know nothing of "what it takes" to get an app on either Installer or Cydia, nor is it my chief concern when deciding on which program to use. Don't get me wrong, I understand how it can get frustrating when others don't see things from your perspective, but the truth of the matter is most of us don't factor any of that stuff in, whether it's out of sheer ignorance or simply because we don't care. It's not going to change. Don't blame me because I've previously installed apps through Installer. Nobody's twisting your arm to keep making your software available for them as well as Cydia. It's your decision, as it is for every other developer out there.

      [/quote]Really, the problem with adding sources is that everyone thinks they can add Installer sources to Cydia. They see a page with 25 sources out there and think "why can't I add those to Cydia?". Even worse, many of those same people are trying to add 1.x sources to Cydia on 2.x, are wondering why that doesn't work, and seem to actually be holding out for Installer so they can add those sources, not realizing that those sources /still/ won't work as 1.x software doesn't work on 2.x. The Add Sources argument is a red herring.[/quote]

      Why do you think there came to be sites with lists of sources like that? Were they there on day one of Installer's release? For the love of God, man, 2.0 isn't even a month old yet. The expectation is that eventually, there will be new sources for repositories with 2.x software. And should Cydia pick up a load of users (mostly due to Installer's unavailability right now, allowing for more people to get accustomed to your program), then who knows how many more devs will start their own repositories for Cydia?

      Also, I find the idea of having to think through the order of installation (something you have to do all the time on Installer as it has no dependencies, and even though 2.x will have dependencies it won't have the ability to conflict with another package or to replace it or anything like that) very unintuitive and /un/friendly. I'm not certain, therefore, why everyone thinks Installer is more "user friendly".
      We're talking about the interface, not conflicts in downloads. And for the record, despite all the talk of dependencies, I never once had a problem with Installer. Maybe I never tried to download a program that would have conflicted with another program, but it was just never a problem. And as I've pointed out before, the warning messages that devs were able to place suited me just fine to alert me when I needed another program to make the first one work (again I present as an example vWallpaper's notification that SkrewCommon was necessary). But as you've pointed out, moot point as dependencies are in the new version.

      Please, please, give me /constructive/ criticism on the interface. I can put together a long laundry list of things Installer is doing wrong on their interface design and bugs in their product (the previous paragraph is just a drop in the bucket). So far, though, all the specific issues people have listed in this thread aren't even issues in Cydia anymore.
      No one's saying the improvements made to Cydia as of late aren't beneficial. I was glad to see the ability to select yourself as an end-user to weed out the packages that we didn't need to see. Glad to see the source editor. Glad to see the icons for the packages. And I think that the 'Manage' main screen is much improved. When I talk about the interface, I'm talking about making it more "clean". A lot of that isn't something I can just tell you how to improve; it deals with the icons used, colors, fonts, button placement, etc. But if you want a suggestion for an improvement, then I would put forth that you should extend the short description when browsing through a list of apps. Right now you get about 7 words in before it cuts off to an ellipse, and in many cases it's not fully understood what the app may be unless you select it. You should make at least 2 lines viewable for each app. In the same vein, it would (in my opinion) look better if the section icons on each app were enlarged, the app source removed (so that it only appears if you've selected the app), and the short descripition aligned with the title (not underneath the icon). Oh, and are the timestamps of the changes really necessary? This is half the reason I like the "Recent Packages" in Installer, because it's boiled down to Today, Yesterday, and Older. In Cydia's case, I think Today and Yesterday would work, and since it keeps a longer list of changes, remove the timestamp and just put the day and date (e.g., Friday, August 1st) for any that are older.

      The main thing I currently think needs to be improved is the screen that pops up when you are installing a package: that black screen with the white text needs to be improved. But it isn't really a UI problem as it doesn't actually do anything different than Installer did: both are showing a progress bar at the bottom, both are waiting while you install, etc..
      Coincidentally, this is one thing I wouldn't change. I'd rather see the commands as they're being done than stare at only a bar; makes me feel like I know something is actually getting done. But that's my personal preference.

      I'm sorry, but what I'm saying there is true and it's sad. ... Maybe RiPDev will be better, only time will tell.
      Well then how about you wait until all is said and done before lambasting their work that hasn't even debuted yet? Cydia is slowly getting more likeable to me; but your (and others') attitudes toward Installer (whether NullRiver or RiPDev) are off-putting.
    1. jojogo's Avatar
      jojogo -
      Man, I just love the fact that I can carry around a badass little computer with me using awesome apps that people have created out of boredom and request. I need to get me some 'puter skills!!...
      At first I was purely Installer; then I discovered Cydia. Now, I'm addicted to both because they both give what I am looking for: Marshmallows and teddy bears and Racer 5, OH MY! (thats a metaphor, I think).


      PS: I think I am addicted to my iPhone.
    1. WyldPhoenix's Avatar
      WyldPhoenix -
      Just updated my iPhone to v2.0.1 using PwnageTool and it included BOTH Cydia & Installer4 beta (4.0b4-4)

      1. The first thing that it did, while browsing around, was to crash my iPhone.

      2. The second thing was to ... crash my iPhone.

      3. The third thing ... crash my iPhone.

      (I know that it is still beta...)

      In my opinion, it just looks a little prettier than Cydia. It downloads the little icon for each application, instead of displaying a generic one like Cydia does. That's about all...

      I am going to delete it, and stick to Cydia!
    1. d2thec's Avatar
      d2thec -
      I need the "search"
    1. zoti's Avatar
      zoti -
      Quote Originally Posted by Bernie-Mac View Post
      if these ripdev guys charge for installer I am definitely sticking with cydia, I always had a bad feeling about those guys taking over installer development



      This legit?
      well, it does install installer but it crashes when you try to
      Open it probably because there is an error in the second command line. I don't know what it is because my unix knoledge is limited butmaybe someone here can correct it.