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  • Latest From EFF vs. Apple on Jailbreaking


    Late Friday Greg Joswiak from Apple, Fred von Lohmann from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and officials from the US Copyright Office, record labels, movie studios, and the software industry sat down together for a hearing concerning the EFF's requested DMCA exemption of Jailbreaking. This comes just a few months after the EFF originally filed for an exemption for Jailbreaking to which Apple responded with claims that Jailbreaking is illegal.

    Apple is still opposing Jailbreaking and claims that copyright protection is why they have sold 30 million iPhones and 1 billion applications. The EFF's position continues to be that comsumers should be able to run any application including those that Apple doesn't approve of.

    Apple is afraid of losing their control on the iPhone where they get to choose what applications are allowed to run for whatever reasons they have. If the exemption for Jailbreaking were approved Apple's Joswiak thinks that “This would severely limit our ability to continue what we are doing as well as innovate for the future.”

    Competition breeds innovation. Shouldn't Apple have a little competition? Wouldn't that force them to do things better? It isn't too much of a stretch to think that firmware 3.0 including many basic features that Apple ignored for a couple of years is in response to the Jailbreaking community adding these features to the iPhone themselves.

    Apple is concerned with protecting their contracts with carriers. When asked by the one of the Copyright Office's councils if Apple's contracts with AT&T “prohibits you from implementing certain applications?” Joswiak responded saying that “We [Apple] don’t allow any bandwidth hogs” (cough where is slingplayer cough).

    Apple, The Motion Picture Association of America, the Recording industry Association of America, the Business Software Alliance and more are worried about piracy that could occur if the Jailbreaking exemption is approved. In Apple's case they are worried that Jailbreaking could cut into their revenue -- they currently get 30% from the sales made on the App Store. Steve Metalitz, a representative for the other groups said that “The impact will be to open up fast fields for the manufacturers and purveyors of pirated games.”

    In response von Lohmann argued that the exemption which would apply to all mobile phone platforms including Google's Andriod is warented because by-itself it is a non-infringing activity that the DCMA authorizes. He went further to say that “This is a close ecosystem of a business model,” adding: “I don’t think Congress meant that when they passed the DMCA."

    The decision on whether the Copyright Office will decide to grant this exemption is not expected until later this year. At the hearing on friday the Copyright Office representatives showed no sign of how they feel either way. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Go Jailbreaking!

    [via wired]
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Latest From EFF vs. Apple on Jailbreaking started by Cody Overcash View original post
    Comments 66 Comments
    1. Ozzyman500's Avatar
      Ozzyman500 -
      Go Jailbreaking! Although when 3.0 comes out I may not have to jailbreak anymore.
    1. awesomeSlayer's Avatar
      awesomeSlayer -
      More of Apple's crap? Stop focusing on "making jailbreak illegal" and focus on other stuff like the 3.0 firmware.
    1. riku98523's Avatar
      riku98523 -
      Big companies like Apple love to complain that its piracy they are worried about but that isn't the case. They don't care about piracy they just care about content control.
    1. Dkr84's Avatar
      Dkr84 -
      I think that there is a line. Applications like 1|\|5T4LL0U5 is piracy, which is with no doubt illegal. When you buy something, it's yours. Apple has somewhere along the line cared more about the money than the satisfaction of customers. There is people making a living off of these kind of things (hacking) do it just because they love it. If jailbreaking your iPod touch/iPhone was suddenly made illegal, then they would lose their carreer. Apple shouldn't be focused on 3rd party applications that people get, mainly just for either themes, boot logo changing, carrier changing, a little fun with some other apps that can be used for deeper hacking (terminal, cmd line stuff, the fun stuff ) and should be more focused on things like making the products better for the customers. If I pay for a product, i'*gonna use it goddammit! . *I have nothing against Apple, they are the BEST.* Jailbreaking SHOULD NOT be made illegal.* We should put an app in Cydia that is just a little picture of tea, and start a tea party in Cupertino .

      Quote Originally Posted by Ozzyman500 View Post
      Go Jailbreaking! Although when 3.0 comes out I may not have to jailbreak anymore.
      Which is just what they want you to think.


      Remember the App Store? We were like, "Jailbreaking will be useless, now we have 3rd party apps and won't have to risk our warranty or our iPods/iPhones ability to boot.
    1. billythekid's Avatar
      billythekid -
      I've often found that analogies with cars, transport, roads and other transport infrastructure are a good way of helping to understand issues of computers, software and information technology.
      In the case of Jailbreaking the analogy is pretty much the same as if you buy a new car and then decide that you are not 100% happy with it. So, you go out and find things that you think improve your car, make it prettier, or uglier, faster, or slower, safer, or less safe. You can do as little as hang a scented plastic pine tree from the rear view mirror or as major as a pimping job that leaves the original car unrecognizable and only fit for the drag track.
      But the bottom line is that you bought a car from a car manufacturer and that manufacturer can have no control or legal rights about what you do to that car as soon as you've paid and driven off the dealership (unless you sign a purchase contract that specifically denies this right aka Rolls Royce and the Beatles).
      And, because you can do that it means that a hell of a lot of people also have jobs in industries related to cars; designing, manufacturing, distributing and selling all the myriad of additions and 'improvements' that you can make to your car. You don't have to go back to the original car dealership to buy them (and letting them take a % of the business). It's totally an issue of what you, as the consumer, want to do with your money.
      And as to the use of the car after your additions and improvement, well there are a load of laws and regulations about cars and what you can or can't do to them if you want to drive on the roads of any country. These laws are not manufacturer specific, they are specific to the type of vehicle and take into account the typical use of that vehicle. So we have different laws for motorcycles, cars, buses and trucks. So you generally would avoid doing anything to your car that would make it overtly dangerous, illegal and un-roadworthy. But the lawmakers have decided, based on rather sound evidence, experience and insight, on what you can or can't do so that you won't be a danger or nuisance to anyone else on the road or off of it.
      Now let's translate this into the realm of jailbreaking. It's quite easy. It's obvious that making jailbreaking illegal is nonsense and totally against the rights of consumers to use their preferences and money as they want. But I wonder whether the work has been done yet on the legal side to legislate what really would be a 'dangerous' or 'antisocial' piece of independent software for an iPhone or other Smart phone, like anything you might find out there in the non-Apple Store repositories. In my opinion such threatening apps are going to be similar to those in the PC sphere, viruses, worms and any app that is enabled to disrupt the mobile networks and their users. I'd say that is pretty easy stuff to legislate about and most of the work is done already and it only needs mobile smart phones to be seen as computing devices like a PC (which is, after all, what they are).

      Although I am great fan of Apple, and consider it to be one of the best digital Design companies in the world I'm afraid I cannot accept the way that they have attempted to limit the possibilities of honest consumers to, basically, buy their great technology and then do anything they want to with it. I hope the courts are of the same opinion and really hope that everyone can support EFF in their efforts.
    1. carlos.michell's Avatar
      carlos.michell -
      Quote Originally Posted by CrooKid View Post
      Shut down hahahaha are you kidding me, when a hack/pirate site goes down 5 more pop up! I do plenty of other illegal things in life. I could give crap less weather some paper pusher makes it a law or not. Not gonna hinder my pirating, cracking and jailbreaking by any means.



      HAHAHA little cry baby! Like they are the ONLY hack/pirate site around.
      You my friend are right. Who cares what apple does in court? We all know apple tries to do everything to stop jailbreaking. I Say bring it on Apple.
    1. sziklassy's Avatar
      sziklassy -
      Quote Originally Posted by cash7c3 View Post
      It isn't too much of a stretch to think that firmware 3.0 including many basic features that Apple ignored for a couple of years is in response to the Jailbreaking community adding these features to the iPhone themselves.
      Honestly, I think it is a bit of a stretch. In my opinion, the more accurate assumption would be that these features are added as a result of other similar devices, namely the Blackberry Storm. Things like copy and paste and video have been around for a while, yet Apple could care less. Why? These jailbreak additions don't pose any competition. But as soon as a competing platform gets launched, Apple is hard at work to add these basic features and then some.

      Quote Originally Posted by billythekid View Post
      I've often found that analogies with cars, transport, roads and other transport infrastructure are a good way of helping to understand issues of computers, software and information technology.
      In the case of Jailbreaking the analogy is pretty much the same as if you buy a new car and then decide that you are not 100% happy with it. So, you go out and find things that you think improve your car, make it prettier, or uglier, faster, or slower, safer, or less safe. You can do as little as hang a scented plastic pine tree from the rear view mirror or as major as a pimping job that leaves the original car unrecognizable and only fit for the drag track.
      But the bottom line is that you bought a car from a car manufacturer and that manufacturer can have no control or legal rights about what you do to that car as soon as you've paid and driven off the dealership (unless you sign a purchase contract that specifically denies this right aka Rolls Royce and the Beatles).
      And, because you can do that it means that a hell of a lot of people also have jobs in industries related to cars; designing, manufacturing, distributing and selling all the myriad of additions and 'improvements' that you can make to your car. You don't have to go back to the original car dealership to buy them (and letting them take a % of the business). It's totally an issue of what you, as the consumer, want to do with your money.
      And as to the use of the car after your additions and improvement, well there are a load of laws and regulations about cars and what you can or can't do to them if you want to drive on the roads of any country. These laws are not manufacturer specific, they are specific to the type of vehicle and take into account the typical use of that vehicle. So we have different laws for motorcycles, cars, buses and trucks. So you generally would avoid doing anything to your car that would make it overtly dangerous, illegal and un-roadworthy. But the lawmakers have decided, based on rather sound evidence, experience and insight, on what you can or can't do so that you won't be a danger or nuisance to anyone else on the road or off of it.
      Now let's translate this into the realm of jailbreaking. It's quite easy. It's obvious that making jailbreaking illegal is nonsense and totally against the rights of consumers to use their preferences and money as they want. But I wonder whether the work has been done yet on the legal side to legislate what really would be a 'dangerous' or 'antisocial' piece of independent software for an iPhone or other Smart phone, like anything you might find out there in the non-Apple Store repositories. In my opinion such threatening apps are going to be similar to those in the PC sphere, viruses, worms and any app that is enabled to disrupt the mobile networks and their users. I'd say that is pretty easy stuff to legislate about and most of the work is done already and it only needs mobile smart phones to be seen as computing devices like a PC (which is, after all, what they are).

      Although I am great fan of Apple, and consider it to be one of the best digital Design companies in the world I'm afraid I cannot accept the way that they have attempted to limit the possibilities of honest consumers to, basically, buy their great technology and then do anything they want to with it. I hope the courts are of the same opinion and really hope that everyone can support EFF in their efforts.
      The difference here is that one cannot modify that car to then download materials and parts from the manufacturers warehouse. Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with Apple stating that jailbreaking is illegal, but more can be done with a jailbroken phone to allow for stealing of apps than can be done to a car for the stealing of parts...

      Quote Originally Posted by Dkr84 View Post

      Remember the App Store? We were like, "Jailbreaking will be useless, now we have 3rd party apps and won't have to risk our warranty or our iPods/iPhones ability to boot.
      No I don't remember saying any such thing. The appstore never promised any of the core features the iPhone has been missing for nearly 2 years.
    1. MetallicaFan1991's Avatar
      MetallicaFan1991 -
      Ffs, not the car analogy again!!!
    1. rubenmer5's Avatar
      rubenmer5 -
      Quote Originally Posted by cash7c3 View Post



      Competition breeds innovation. Shouldn't Apple have a little competition? Wouldn't that force them to do things better? It isn't too much of a stretch to think that firmware 3.0 including many basic features that Apple ignored for a couple of years is in response to the Jailbreaking community adding these features to the iPhone themselves.




      [via wired]
      You hit the spot, cash7c3. Thats exactly why Apple is doing what they are doing. The competition force them to come up with firmware 3.0, therefore, losing control over their profits wanting to make money bringing those Apps little by little instead all at once. Shame on them and cheers to the guys that force them to come up with firmware. Keep up the good job!
    1. easybake's Avatar
      easybake -
      so as of right now, jailbreaking is legal?
    1. Shody's Avatar
      Shody -
      if there was no jailbreak i think they would've sold less phones
    1. mikerlx's Avatar
      mikerlx -
      Question: Why have I heard of iPhone 3G sold with factory unlock?
    1. CrooKid's Avatar
      CrooKid -
      Quote Originally Posted by treble26 View Post
      i really hope that the jailbreaking community wins on this because i hate having other people controlling something that i purchased with my own money. if we purchased something with our own money doesnt that mean it belongs to us? and shouldnt we be able to do whatever we feel like doing to our products? i and i think just about every other person in the world would agree with me when i say that Apple just wants to control everything! they want to take control of the world. apple is probably the most hated company around. for god sakes! we need to use itunes to add music onto or ipods and iphones, we cant just plug them in and drag and drop our music into the devices like every other mp3 player. I HOPE JAILBREAKING WINS!!!!!
      EXACTLY! It's MY PHONE!!! If I wanna throw it up against the wall and break it then so be it. If I wanna install hacked pirated apps on my phone then OH WELL! That's my business. That's like car manufacturers saying I'm not allowed to put a supercharger on my car

      See Apple is starting to get in the spotlight a little ever since the iPod came out. That and the iPhone are the ONLY things that have saved Apple! They have been in the gutter for years. Now they are coming up and I think they just don't know how to handle themselves. Wasting all their time on pointless crap trying to keep people from doing what they really wanna do on their phone when really Apple should be looking at why everyone is jailbreaking their phones. Obviously people wanna do what they wanna do and NOT just be restricted to what CRAPPLE wants us to do!
    1. 24trepid's Avatar
      24trepid -
      If Apple would allow themes and customizing,
      I wouldn't have to jailbreak ....


      The MAIN reason I do.
    1. kickerman65's Avatar
      kickerman65 -
      I totally agree with the comment above

      Quote Originally Posted by CrooKid View Post
      Shut down hahahaha are you kidding me, when a hack/pirate site goes down 5 more pop up! I do plenty of other illegal things in life. I could give crap less weather some paper pusher makes it a law or not. Not gonna hinder my pirating, cracking and jailbreaking by any means.



      HAHAHA little cry baby! Like they are the ONLY hack/pirate site around.
      Well dont get me wrong here cause you and me my friend are one and the same.We are both Pirates to the fullest! Long live Pirates and hackers!!!

      But if apple is successful in hindering the jailbreaking community and putting an end to Cydia then our community as we know it will cease to exist. Cydia is our lifeline here or the heart if you will in the jailbreaking community. Without it we are hopeless because the vast majority of us here know very little about the inner workings of the iPhone OS or any OS to that matter.

      Let me just say this: if Cydia dies then then the majority of the iPhone community dies with it
    1. Grassmasta's Avatar
      Grassmasta -
      LOL @ Apple

      Just because Trojan made the condoms doesn't mean they get to dictate (<<<<< punn) who and/or what they are used with/on.


      Quote Originally Posted by mikerlx View Post
      Question: Why have I heard of iPhone 3G sold with factory unlock?
      Because in certain countries (that tend to make more sense than the good ol' US of A) its deemed illegal for cell phones to be locked to individual carriers. So, rather than lose out on the sales, Apple catered to the needs of those lucky enough to live in such countries.
    1. NakedFaerie's Avatar
      NakedFaerie -
      Stopping Jailbreaking is like stopping illegal downloads. It's never gonna happen no matter what Apple try.

      I have to jailbreak my iphone as I have no choice so if they do make it illegal I will straight away take them to court.

      I have a iPhone 2G 8GB in Australia and it doesnt work without jailbreaking it here.

      If they want to make it illegal they can either have fun in court with me or swap my iphone for a local 3G one for free. I guess it's off to court I go.

      BTW, I'll keep using cracked apps coz Apple suck. Not coz I cant afford them, its just coz of the way they are going about it.
    1. Magnum's Avatar
      Magnum -
      Quote Originally Posted by NakedFaerie View Post
      Stopping Jailbreaking is like stopping illegal downloads. It's never gonna happen no matter what Apple try.

      I have to jailbreak my iphone as I have no choice so if they do make it illegal I will straight away take them to court.

      I have a iPhone 2G 8GB in Australia and it doesnt work without jailbreaking it here.

      If they want to make it illegal they can either have fun in court with me or swap my iphone for a local 3G one for free. I guess it's off to court I go.

      BTW, I'll keep using cracked apps coz Apple suck. Not coz I cant afford them, its just coz of the way they are going about it.
      your not very affectivly "hurting" apple by using cracked apps...just the wonderfull devs who make these apps we all love...yeah apple loses 30% from ONE dev if they decide to stop because their app is being cracked...but thats nothing to them...your just causing devs to stop making apps, and to raise prices...if you hate apple, steal an iPhone...not an app...

      and dont get me started on you a$$holes stealing from our lovely jailbreak community...stealing Cyntact and stuff...if it wasnt for those people we wouldnt even be having this discussion...maybe not even this website!!!

      SHOW SOME RESPECT...
    1. confucious's Avatar
      confucious -
      Quote Originally Posted by ares07 View Post
      well, unlocking is illegal in many countries, its NOT the same as jailbreaking
      Within the EU as far as I know, unlockingg is legal in every country except Portugal, in Italy and belgium it is illegal to sell a locked phone and in France the carrier must provide unlock codes, in every other EU country unlocking is not illegal, nor is it illegal in the USA, Canada, Australia etc.

      In fact I can not think of another country where unlocking is actually illegal although I would certainly like to find out if you can provide details of any other country.

      Of course jailbraking is completely different from unlocking but I was pointing out that for many of us it is necessary to persue completely legal ends such as unlocking.

      Not all of us are thieves.
    1. vedavis's Avatar
      vedavis -
      I don't want cracked apps...I want useful apps that the AppStore does not provide...