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  • Adobe CEO Dismisses Steve Jobs's Insults as "Amusing"

    One of the most talked about stories of today is Steve Jobs' tough-talkin' letter this morning outlining why Apple has distanced itself from Adobe. Issuing a multi-faceted wave of complaints about everything from shoddy development tools to openness, Steve Jobs let Adobe have it. And now Adobe is firing back.

    In an exclusive interview with the Wall Street Journal, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen called Jobs' comments "amusing" and shrugged off the harsh barbs saying that "we have different views of the world. Our view of the world is multi-platform." While conducting the interview, the Journal's Alan Murray likened Adobe and Apple's feud to that of Jon and Kate Gosselin's by pointing out how a once-close relationship has now bitterly deteriorated.

    Narayen, however, says it's Apple that has changed while Adobe, on the other hand, has remained "true to the position" with which it was founded. The position? To "help people deal with multiple operating systems." Steve Jobs, of course, doesn't think Adobe helps anything with regard to Macs. Narayen, in fact, made it a point to respond to Jobs' allegation that Adobe is the most frequent cause of Mac crashes. Narayen retorted, asserting that if Adobe actually crashes a Mac, it most likely has something "to do with the Apple operating system."

    While Jobs and Narayen could argue point for point endlessly, Adobe's chief neatly summed up his argument by saying that he supports "letting customers decide" what's best for them and that, in the end, the multi-platform world will "eventually prevail."

    Oh... and in case you're wondering, Narayen doesn't have an iPhone. He's a Google Nexus One kinda guy.

    Image via awesomedc
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Adobe CEO Dismisses Steve Jobs's Insults as "Amusing" started by Michael Essany View original post
    Comments 51 Comments
    1. vantheman169's Avatar
      vantheman169 -
      Quote Originally Posted by whereswaldo View Post
      i'm kinda stuck in the middle right now, i want flash but still understand why Jobs is against it
      ^what he said
    1. mooritexxx's Avatar
      mooritexxx -
      this is just getting better and better
    1. Antman217's Avatar
      Antman217 -
      I though I wanted flash on the iPhone but I've seen how flash runs on some phones that are coming out soon and I"m honestly disappointed at how it runs. A lot of videos are choppy and lag. I'll stick to my clean unlaggy HTML 5 videos on my iPhone for now.
    1. virtusaeterna's Avatar
      virtusaeterna -
      I see both sides of this.

      Personally, I think it should be up to the consumer.

      We are already paying somewhere between $30-$120 a month for our iPhone, on top of the $199 or $299 purchase we made to get the device ($500+ for certain iPhones...3.1.2 3GS, unlocked phones, etc)

      With that, the decision should go directly to the consumer.
      Apple can say whatever they want about how it shouldn't be allowed, but should not do anything to inhibit Adobe's attempts to make Flash runnable on the iPhone.
      Like, by all means, preach away that Flash is a terrible piece of technology.
      Adobe, go ahead and boast about how Flash is amazing.

      But when it comes down to it, consumers should be left with the decision.

      Just my 2 cents, trying to be unbiased.
    1. wolverinemarky's Avatar
      wolverinemarky -
      would be funnier then hell if it was all a setup and flash was on the new iphone wouldnt that be shock and awe lol
    1. Tylervalo's Avatar
      Tylervalo -
      I'm tired of you ******* certain people ******** 24/7 "waaa! my device, I should be able to choose!" God Damn! Shut the **** UP! You were not born with an iPhone in your hand and Steve Jobs took flash away when you were 12. You bought the device knowing it did not support flash. That's equivalent to you ******** to GM that you bought a Corvette ZR1 and whining it doesn't also have twin turbos. Ok, yea you paid for it, it's your device you can do what you want with it, so stop ******** and ******* make flash work if your that damn concerned.

      For anyone who's normal I apologize for my language, but I've been browsing here waaaaaaayyyyy to long and finally couldn't take the ignorance of some people. I bought my 3G knowing what it could and couldn't do, if I had wanted a video camera and compass I would have got a 3Gs. If you want flash, get an Android.
    1. Happy Noodle Boy's Avatar
      Happy Noodle Boy -
      No need to apologize there's a lot of dumb people here.
    1. ty22's Avatar
      ty22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by rickybobby View Post
      htc evo only downfall its on sprint

      8MP autofocus camera with dual LED flash and 1.3MP front-facing camera
      * High-quality video streaming and downloads at 3G and 4G data speeds
      * Capture and share HD-quality video (720p) from your phone
      * Output pictures, slides and videos in HD quality (720p) via HDMI cable (sold separately)
      * Live video sharing with Qik
      * Built-in kickstand for hands-free viewing
      * Media player with 3.5mm stereo headset jack
      * FM radio and Amazon MP3 store
      * Sprint applications including Sprint TV® and NASCAR Sprint Cup Mobile(SM)
      * Bluetooth® 2.1 with A2DP Stereo and EDR
      * Built-in WiFi®: 802.11 b/g
      * Digital compass, G-Sensor, proximity sensor, light sensor, GPS
      * Expandable memory: 8GB microSD card included; supports up to 32GB
      * Dimensions: 4.8″ x 2.6″ x .5″ (LxWxT)
      * Weight: 6 ounces
      * Main display: 4.3” WVGA (800×480) 65K colors
      * Standard removable 1500mAh Lithium (Li-on) battery
      * Memory: 1GB ROM, 512MB RAM
      What's wrong with Sprint? They have much more 3G than AT&T and I find their 3G speeds faster. And they are affordable. And also, without Sprint, the main feature of this phone would be useless.... 4G. I don't see any other networks who have 4G ready yet.
    1. cpkirkley's Avatar
      cpkirkley -
      I just think its is unprofessional to publicly bash companies the way Steve Jobs does. I understand his position as head honcho, but moving forward, I think Apple wouldn't look so damned immature if they let Tim Cook do the talking instead of a caffeine manic who doesnt respect his supporters/brand image enough to wear something other than ratty black turtlenecks to public events. I have trouble even listening to him speak nowadays, because I'm so turned off by his overall douchebag-ness.
    1. rickybobby's Avatar
      rickybobby -
      I just read the article on apple's home page. And what got me is when steve said the flash program is not open its controlled by adobe. If im not mistaken isnt all apple devices like that,i just find it funny how the pot calling the kettle black.

      Quote Originally Posted by ty22 View Post
      what's wrong with sprint? They have much more 3g than at&t and i find their 3g speeds faster. And they are affordable. And also, without sprint, the main feature of this phone would be useless.... 4g. I don't see any other networks who have 4g ready yet.
      i had sprint for four years all fours years $17 surcharge here undescribeable charge here oh and horrible customer service other than that great
    1. adrian1480's Avatar
      adrian1480 -
      thought you all would appreciate this rebuttal:

      Jobs lies in "thoughts on Flash" | blixtsystems.com

      Steve Jobs has posted a defense to his position on Flash and not surprisingly it's full of errors and misrepresentations.

      Let's look at the points he makes:

      First, there’s “Open”.

      He asses that "Adobe’s Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc."

      Sure, Adobe's Flash products are only available from Adobe. That's what makes them Adobe's.

      But there are many open source IDE's, compilers, RTMP servers and players available.

      Also he claims that "By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system."

      Flash is a complex system made up from many parts, but the most important part is the swf format. That is an open format, and you can write both a compiler and a player without needing a license.

      So if the swf is open what is Jobs referring to when he says "100% proprietary"?
      It cannot be the RTMP and AMF formats since they are open. And the whole SDK with compiler and Flex framework is open.

      The one thing that is not fully open is Adobes own implementation of a Flash Player. Since Apple is one of the licensors behind H.264 one would think that Jobs would be aware of why Adobe cannot release it publicly. It contains proprietary codecs and hence cannot be made open by Adobe.

      But if Jobs is concerned with proprietary products, maybe he should work for making H.264 open to help Adobe open the Flash Player as well?

      And let's not forget that the canvas is Apple's proprietary technology.

      Second, there’s the “full web”.

      Here Jobs claims that "Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access 'the full web' because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads."

      To claim that "almost all" the web would be the same as the "full web" is of course dishonest in itself, and in this case the "almost" is very broad since there is countless sites that have not bothered with HTML5 yet.

      And he seems to forget that Flash is used for a lot more than displaying video. He does mention games, but seems to think that because there are many games for iPhone today there are no games on the web.

      He's trying to argue that Adobe are wrong when they say Flash is needed to access "the full web", and in the middle of the argument he switches focus to the app store and how many games there are there. Clearly Jobs has a vision to replace the Internet with his tightly controlled app store, and is expecting users to to the same. But the argument was about the web, and the fact remains that apart from video there are a lot of apps, games and animations which cannot be viewed without Flash.

      Third, there’s reliability, security and performance.

      The reliability and performance arguments never get's old for Steve. I guess he still hasn't bother with benchmarking to actually find out that his assumptions are bogus.
      HTML5 and JS certainly does not provide greater stability or performance. That should be pretty clear to anyone familiar with the technologies.

      Regarding security, looking at data from Secunia and the number of threats and time for them to get patched I would say that Flash has a rather good security record. It's certainly not the case that JS is secure and Flash isn't.

      Fourth, there’s battery life.

      Here Jobs goes in to the importance of hardware encoding. What he seems to miss is that Adobe and several hardware manufacturers are cooperating to provide acceleration in Flash Player 10.1.
      Of course Apple could have done the same if they where concerned with the battery life, but that would require some effort, and dumping Flash is of course easier.

      And don't forget that Apple is a licensor of H.264, and hence it's natural Jobs want Flash to die. With Flash developers can freely choose codecs, but with HTML5 you need to make sure the users browsers supports the codec you use. This means in practice that encoding in H.264 will remain obligatory for some time. The reason is that Safari does not support open codecs like Ogg Theora because it's open, while Mozilla does not support H.264 because it's proprietary. So with HTML5 Apple has a chance to exert control over the choice of codec, but with the Flash Player H.264 will be optional.

      Fifth, there’s Touch.

      Oh dear, I cannot believe this is written by Jobs and not by one of his mindless drones : "Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers. For example, many Flash websites rely on “rollovers”, which pop up menus or other elements when the mouse arrow hovers over a specific spot."

      So Flash is bad because it has a roll over state...just like pretty much any other technology?

      And "many websites rely on rollovers" is simply not true, just like there are very few HTML sites that rely on roll overs. He even goes on to claim that "most Flash websites need to be rewritten to support touch-based devices".

      Maybe Jobs surfed to www.dontclick.it with his iPad and got upset?
      Calm down Steve, it's an old experiment and I can assure you that most sites using Flash do not rely on rollovers.

      And since it seems like Steve is a bit clueless about the development process, someone should explain to him that for sites that currently do rely on rollovers it's a lot easier to change event type for your buttons than rewriting the whole app using a new technology.

      Sixth, the most important reason.

      This is the only point he does not try to support by lying or misrepresenting facts. He want's full control over the platform, and if that means not providing a very often requested feature then so be it.

      Of course it requires less effort to not have to work together with any third parties...a dictatorship is a very efficient form of government as well.

      Developers and customers expect a certain degree of interoperability and backwards compatibility. And one have to strike a balance between trying to keep the platform progressing and ensuring differentiation in the marketplace while also ensuring that developers and customers are happy.

      Looking at the many voices demanding Flash on the iPhone/iPad and developers outrage over section 3.3.1 it seems to me that Apple clearly is out of balance here, but time will tell. Personally I think a put option on Apple stock is looking better and better for each day.

      He ends with "Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

      Adobe are working on HTML5 tools, but unlike Jobs they are obviously smart enough to realise that there is room for more than one technology.

      And claiming that Flash is the past is of course pure arrogance from Jobs. It's a product that is very much alive making with frequent major updates, and that is currently used to serve the vast majority of the multimedia on the web.

      It's designed specifically for delivering multimedia and rich applications in the browser, while HTML5 is an attempt to add that functionality to an ageing mark-up language.
    1. rickybobby's Avatar
      rickybobby -
      Quote Originally Posted by adrian1480 View Post
      thought you all would appreciate this rebuttal:

      jobs lies in "thoughts on flash" | blixtsystems.com
      bravo bravoooooo
    1. virtusaeterna's Avatar
      virtusaeterna -
      Quote Originally Posted by Tylervalo View Post
      I'm tired of you ******* certain people ******** 24/7 "waaa! my device, I should be able to choose!" God Damn! Shut the **** UP! You were not born with an iPhone in your hand and Steve Jobs took flash away when you were 12. You bought the device knowing it did not support flash. That's equivalent to you ******** to GM that you bought a Corvette ZR1 and whining it doesn't also have twin turbos. Ok, yea you paid for it, it's your device you can do what you want with it, so stop ******** and ******* make flash work if your that damn concerned.
      Woah, woah, woah. Calm down man.

      Of course you're right. The saying "buyer beware" is applicable to all products.

      But we're talking about the next gen iPhone here. I bought my 3G and 3GS fully aware that it would not do flash. Why? It was already made that way.
      But this next gen iPhone we're talking about here is still in development, or at least that's what I'm assuming. Of course, Apple can do and say whatever they want because this is their product. However right now it is still being worked on; there IS room for it to add flash. Apple just decides not to, for whatever reasons they have, some of which are most likely very legitimate reasons.

      And I'm assuming you read my post and got pissed off, seeing as I was the only one who stated this.

      You really need to read more. I was trying hard to be unbiased to prevent people like you from posting crazy angry hateful rant posts. Obviously I dropped the ball there.
      Like I stated above, I was talking about the next gen iPhone. Not something ALREADY developed. Where did I complain about 3G/3GS lacking Flash support? The way I interpret your post, you are saying that I am currently complaining about how the phone lacks Flash. That is not what I meant to say.
      Because this phone is still in development, there is a possibility (as in they could integrate it, I'm not talking about it's possible for the hardware to handle it) that they could include SOME Flash integration.

      Anyway, if you had not noticed, I was trying to say I was unbiased. I honestly do think that they should leave it up to consumers. If someone develops an app that somehow allows Flash on the iPhone, so be it. But Apple has put the foot down and will disallow any Flash things in the App Store.

      "your device you can do what you want with it"
      Yes, that is absolutely true. Perhaps someone WILL (if they have not already) run with the idea and make Flash work.
      But let's say it's an app.
      Apple does not approve the app.

      I mean it's just going to end up on some Cydia repo anyway, if such an app were to be developed.

      I may have digressed, but what I'm saying is that Apple should allow the consumer to decide whether they want Flash on their phone, be it through an app or what have you.

      Hopefully this post has clarified some of the points I made earlier.

      Quote Originally Posted by Happy Noodle Boy View Post
      No need to apologize there's a lot of dumb people here.
      I surely hope you're not referring to me!
    1. rhekt's Avatar
      rhekt -
      Quote Originally Posted by MetallicaFan1991 View Post
      ^ I meant Flash because it's been 3 years or so so I thought people would have given up on porting some kind of Flash to the iPhone.
      oh..my bad. still planetbeing's work may enable this

      Quote Originally Posted by Antman217 View Post
      I though I wanted flash on the iPhone but I've seen how flash runs on some phones that are coming out soon and I"m honestly disappointed at how it runs. A lot of videos are choppy and lag. I'll stick to my clean unlaggy HTML 5 videos on my iPhone for now.
      yeah ive seen official Adobe footage on their mobile flash and its GASTLY [*laughing*] theyll show it for a split second and say "now lets look at something else" or whatever....it sucks. total lags. and choppy. its not ready for mobile and doubt it ever will be. since when do people feel that everything that works flawlessly on their laptop/desktop crossover seamlessly to their mobile?? !unbelievable!
    1. scatman10's Avatar
      scatman10 -
      Apple forgetting where they came from once again? Pirates of the silicone valley Deja-vu?
    1. ModJoe's Avatar
      ModJoe -
      i can live without flash on my iPhone, no Problem there.
      What me makes wonder, all are talking about flash they want.
      But no Developer tried to implement flash plugin and selling it at Cyndia.

      Must be a real cash cow, after mostly everyone demand it.
    1. unoimkll's Avatar
      unoimkll -
      Anyone who uses the term crashes in an argument cant use a computer and has no right presenting their argument further!
    1. Meglomaniac's Avatar
      Meglomaniac -
      Well i think jobs is right, flash content is easy to create but also buggy for MOST OS's .
      And i for one get that jobs sais well see we got HTML 5 and css now where you can achieve the same content in that works better and faster then flash.

      so instead of allowing a buggy program to run on their customer computers wich would make them very happy...
      He chooses to be the game changer and say NO.
      Wich is already pushing some popular websites to change to other ways of bringing content over and succeeding.

      And if we all just start ignoring flash more and more sites would follow this example.
    1. stehlin14's Avatar
      stehlin14 -
      Im a Google Nexus One kinda guy too. actually as of tuesday
    1. lolcats1's Avatar
      lolcats1 -
      then why are you on this site?

      Quote Originally Posted by unoimkll View Post
      Anyone who uses the term crashes in an argument cant use a computer and has no right presenting their argument further!