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  • Nokia: Everything Apple Makes Infringes Our Patents


    Nokia, the world's biggest mobile phone maker, said on Tuesday it had filed a complaint with the US International Trade Commission alleging that Apple has infringed Nokia patents in "virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers." Nokia had sued Apple in October, and earlier this month Apple countersued.

    In its complaint before the ITC, Nokia claims that Apple has illegally taken advantage of technology that the Finnish phone manufacturer developed. The allegation is that Apple infringed seven separate Nokia patents in implementing iPhone, iPod and Mac camera, antenna and power management functionality, as well as elements of the user interface. "These patented technologies are important to Nokia's success as they allow better user experience, lower manufacturing costs, smaller size and longer battery life for Nokia products," the company said in a statement.

    Paul Melin, Nokia's general manager of patent licensing, drew a distinction between this action and Nokia's earlier lawsuit, filed at the US District Court in Delaware.

    While our litigation in Delaware is about Apple's attempt to free-ride on the back of Nokia investment in wireless standards, the ITC case filed today is about Apple's practice of building its business on Nokia's proprietary innovation. [...] Nokia has been the leading developer of many key technologies in small electronic devices. This action is about protecting the results of such pioneering development.
    The Delaware lawsuit accused Apple of infringing 10 patents covering wireless data transfer, speech coding, security and encryption, and said their patents had been "infringed by all Apple iPhone models shipped since the iPhone was introduced in 2007." Apple struck back in December, suing Nokia for infringing on Apple's patents. The California computer maker sought to have Nokia's lawsuit dismissed, saying argued that it was not infringing on Nokia's patents... and that even if a court found them guilty of infringing,anyway Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms.

    Industry experts note that this legal back-and-forth in a fairly common tactic when licensing negotiations have broken down, and believe that Nokia is playing hardball to get royalty payments from Apple in the $6 to $12 US range for each iPhone sold.
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Nokia: Everything Apple Makes Infringes Our Patents started by Paul Daniel Ash View original post
    Comments 51 Comments
    1. navalynt's Avatar
      navalynt -
      Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
      Are you retarded? They've been in negotiations for 2 years! That's why it's just coming to light now.

      Uhm, yes they did do something different here. They didn't work out an agreement OR share technology. They just stole it. Hence the lawsuits.
      Good to know someone else understands the situation!

      I'm seeing a lot of posts from love-struck Apple fanboys (and fangirls) from the United States who don't realize that carriers here are REQUESTING those cheap POS phones from Nokia to give away free to maximize their profits. Nokia makes a lot of quality handsets but you won't get them free, you have to actually pay for them.

      Any why is paying $6-$12 per handset for utilizing the technology of almost a dozen patents held by Nokia make people cringe? The iPhone costs less than $200 to produce yet sells for how much? I think they price range is very appropriate and I don't think it will affect the cost of the iPhone to consumers. And this isn't some "landmark patent suit" either where Nokia will then go after everyone else. Nokia already has arrangements with most other manufacturers to either straight up pay for licensing or sharing of technology.
    1. Dumi's Avatar
      Dumi -
      Quote Originally Posted by ty22 View Post
      First of all, how can you compare a Nokia to a iPhone? It's like a wad of tin foil vs. the holy grail. Second, Nokia is just trying to make itself look good and get money from the best phone maker because they are a fail.
      What???! The Best "Phone Maker"???!!! I could just slep someone for this if i had one next to me right now. Do you know who invented most of the basic and upper-basic techs for mobile devices??! Before and after GSM?!... gosh!

      I agree with you anyway... How can you compare Nokia to iPhone? You cant, Lmo! A World Biggest Selling and Manufacture Mobile Phone Company to a U.S.A's Biggest selling mobile phone company (witch by the way all his devices costs... what? Expensive! Right?!)


      Quote Originally Posted by Kroo View Post
      It's a given Nokia developed early technologies for mobile phones. Many companies, not just Apple, add them to their devices without specific permission from the parent companies. They either work out an agreement, or share technology. Apple did nothing different here. Everybody expected the iPhone to fail, but it didn't. It caught all other phone makers with their pants down, and they didn't like it. Nokia never went to Apple and asked to agree to licensing terms, they went straight to their lawyers. They want royalties for their technology, granted, but they believe they are also entitled to have access to Apple developed technologies, for nothing, (hence the counter suit). Not a reasonable agreement in my book. Nokia have slipped down the popularity stakes very quickly and are at risk of becoming redundant if they don't catch up soon. They're running scared and the law suits prove that. Will Nokia do the same when or if the Google phone becomes another hit? As far as I'm aware, Google have all the same features Nokia are suing Apple for. Where's that law suit? It's just stupid. The world would be a better place if there were no accountants and lawyers running things. They're just greedy B,astards.
      Some people should keep they crappy ideas. Did you know that Apple only met the world of mobile phones 4 years ago? And that Nokia is like... What, is grand-grand-grand-father?!
      Dont you have respect for elder people?


      Quote Originally Posted by navalynt View Post
      Good to know someone else understands the situation!

      I'm seeing a lot of posts from love-struck Apple fanboys (and fangirls) from the United States who don't realize that carriers here are REQUESTING those cheap POS phones from Nokia to give away free to maximize their profits. Nokia makes a lot of quality handsets but you won't get them free, you have to actually pay for them.

      Any why is paying $6-$12 per handset for utilizing the technology of almost a dozen patents held by Nokia make people cringe? The iPhone costs less than $200 to produce yet sells for how much? I think they price range is very appropriate and I don't think it will affect the cost of the iPhone to consumers. And this isn't some "landmark patent suit" either where Nokia will then go after everyone else. Nokia already has arrangements with most other manufacturers to either straight up pay for licensing or sharing of technology.
      You got that right!

      Maybe most of this fan-boys (or boys with the "s" bended), dont realise that Apple was the last(?) phone maker to appear in the market, and ALL OTHER phone manufacture companys had paid already all that to Nokia.

      Is it me or the people in the USA only know 3 things: PDA's, Motorola and iPhone?

      Maybe that is why some appear to be ignorant...
    1. mortopher's Avatar
      mortopher -
      If Nokia had their top of the line phones subsidized through ATT like Apple does I don't think I would have ever bought an iPhone. I've always wondered why Nokia doesn't market their top end models like the N97 or N900 on a more widespread format here in the states.
    1. rhekt's Avatar
      rhekt -
      i guess we all forgot about that super smartphone nokia brought out before the iphone....oh wait they didnt.
    1. se23's Avatar
      se23 -
      the only thing bad about nokia is symbian needs a refresh other than than nokias do pretty much what u want. iphone is a good toy, but they need to pay respect where its due! says the man with a 3g and nokia e63. imagine if nokia got the rights to see apples inside's!!!!! i think nokia would create a monster......a non restricted monster

      ps @rhekt dnt mess with the n95! aa far as im concerned that was the phone that set the benchmark.
    1. unison999's Avatar
      unison999 -
      Quote Originally Posted by pauldanielash View Post
      Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms.
      This to me pretty much means Apple admitting it is guilty of something.
    1. politicalslug's Avatar
      politicalslug -
      Quote Originally Posted by navalynt View Post
      What most of you fail to grasp is that Nokia has spent BILLIONS in R&D on cellular technology and they are recouping those expenses by licensing the technology they develop to other companies. Every other company making GSM/UMTS handsets has either paid for their own R&D or worked out a licensing agreement with Nokia.

      Apple doesn't want to pay for the R&D to develop their own technology nor do they want to pay to use the technology developed by someone else. I would have to call this piracy.

      Apple paid some programmers to develop it's own iPhone OS then took on the hardware "lego style" using bricks of existing technology to put together a new product. Those bricks cost someone else A LOT of money to develop, so is it really so surprising that Nokia is taking legal action after Apple refused to cooperate?

      From the sound of things Nokia has been trying to work with Apple to work out an agreement since the first iPhone came out but Apple just doesn't want to pay the royalties and put credit where it's due.
      Nokia screwed itself when it violated the terms of its licensing agreement for its cellular related patents. It's true that all other cellular equipment makers must license from Nokia, but in order to have Nokia's patents implemented into GSM and UTMS standards, they agreed on a fixed licensing fee. Apple has ample documentation that Nokia attempted to modify that fixed licensing fee by mandating access to Apple's patent portfolio as a condition of licensing. That was nothing but dumb on Nokia's part. They took a gamble and lost. While Apple will have to pay that licensing fee regardless of the outcome of the patent dispute, it will only be mandated to pay the standard fee (charged to all other manufacturers) and Apple will not have to engage in any cross licensing agreements as a contingency. Nokia knows they'll get paid the standard rate, but by gambling as they have, they have allowed Apple to legal ground to put off those license payments in perpetuity until this issue is resolved in court. That's what these companies do, they take risks and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. The issue isn't whether Apple will pay the royalties, it's when they will pay and whether Nokia will be forced into concessions for violating their standard licensing agreement by attempting to tack on additional requirements specific to Apple.

      Quote Originally Posted by Kroo View Post
      It's a given Nokia developed early technologies for mobile phones. Many companies, not just Apple, add them to their devices without specific permission from the parent companies. They either work out an agreement, or share technology. Apple did nothing different here. Everybody expected the iPhone to fail, but it didn't. It caught all other phone makers with their pants down, and they didn't like it. Nokia never went to Apple and asked to agree to licensing terms, they went straight to their lawyers. They want royalties for their technology, granted, but they believe they are also entitled to have access to Apple developed technologies, for nothing, (hence the counter suit). Not a reasonable agreement in my book. Nokia have slipped down the popularity stakes very quickly and are at risk of becoming redundant if they don't catch up soon. They're running scared and the law suits prove that. Will Nokia do the same when or if the Google phone becomes another hit? As far as I'm aware, Google have all the same features Nokia are suing Apple for. Where's that law suit? It's just stupid. The world would be a better place if there were no accountants and lawyers running things. They're just greedy B,astards.
      Actually Google is playing it safe here. All patents in question (even those in the software stacks) are going to be paid by the phone manufacturers themselves, not Google. If any Google branded phone had an issue like this, Google wouldn't be liable; HTC, Motorola, Samsung, etc... whoever produced and sold the phone, they'd be the ones liable for paying Nokia patent royalties.
    1. snap1500's Avatar
      snap1500 -
      Quote Originally Posted by thetoothfairy View Post
      If there were no lawyers..... companies could not behave like this! If this is true why did Nokia wait so long?
      Time to put a smack down on these american idiots. To the smart americans, stay smart and smack any idiot american who makes the rest of us look bad with their statements like the one above. What do you know about the patent process, research time, and behind the scene negotiation?

      Quote Originally Posted by iLaw-One View Post
      Yeah....Nokia's just trying to cash in on Apple's success...why don't they beg instead and say pretty please??
      lotta fanbois popping out.
    1. Blowfish64's Avatar
      Blowfish64 -
      Quote Originally Posted by politicalslug View Post
      Nokia screwed itself when it violated the terms of its licensing agreement for its cellular related patents. It's true that all other cellular equipment makers must license from Nokia, but in order to have Nokia's patents implemented into GSM and UTMS standards, they agreed on a fixed licensing fee. Apple has ample documentation that Nokia attempted to modify that fixed licensing fee by mandating access to Apple's patent portfolio as a condition of licensing. That was nothing but dumb on Nokia's part. They took a gamble and lost. While Apple will have to pay that licensing fee regardless of the outcome of the patent dispute, it will only be mandated to pay the standard fee (charged to all other manufacturers) and Apple will not have to engage in any cross licensing agreements as a contingency. Nokia knows they'll get paid the standard rate, but by gambling as they have, they have allowed Apple to legal ground to put off those license payments in perpetuity until this issue is resolved in court. That's what these companies do, they take risks and sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. The issue isn't whether Apple will pay the royalties, it's when they will pay and whether Nokia will be forced into concessions for violating their standard licensing agreement by attempting to tack on additional requirements specific to Apple.



      Actually Google is playing it safe here. All patents in question (even those in the software stacks) are going to be paid by the phone manufacturers themselves, not Google. If any Google branded phone had an issue like this, Google wouldn't be liable; HTC, Motorola, Samsung, etc... whoever produced and sold the phone, they'd be the ones liable for paying Nokia patent royalties.
      Finally! A useful post! That's great info there, thanks a lot for sharing all that.
    1. snap1500's Avatar
      snap1500 -
      Quote Originally Posted by fishbone View Post
      It's sad to see a respectable company as Nokia beaten in his on ground, and then try to hurt the offender with a lawsuit, instead of strike back with a better product offering.

      Shame on you, Nokia.
      Let's say you were an R&D person at Nokia and you have many great patents under your belt. You are probably very proud of this. Then a company comes along and use your idea without permission. Then, the company that you work for, nokia, wont do anything about it and makes you work harder to develope more patents. Work harder to design a better phone. Wil this be your reaction?: "oh it's only a few years of my hard work. Let's not sue and just try to make a better phone..."

      Quote Originally Posted by iLaw-One View Post
      Ever since I started using mobile phones (about 15years) I've always used Nokia phones because of their durability, user friendliness and the ease with which later models allowed you to install stuff. I however dropped them like hot potatoes when the iphone came out.

      Instead of filling lawsuits, Nokia should spend the time doing more research and come out with a better, more superior product and maybe they just might win back all the people they lost...?
      Another one.."Dont protect our hard work and just make a better product"

      Quote Originally Posted by triniflavaforya View Post
      Not so!! NOKIA just wants new kid on the block "APPLE" to pay their dues!...you're no going to take technology I researched and provided and use it for your own personal gains without so much as a thank you!! grins
      Word...

      Quote Originally Posted by domenicp View Post
      Until the iphone, I had no desire to own a smartphone. Cell phone manufacturers were always catering to what the wireless providers wanted instead of innovating and pushing providers to open up. I didn't see anything from Nokia that was remotely close to what Apple provided. The best you could hope for was email capability and a lousy browser.

      This particular lawsuit doesn't sound like it has any merit. It must be more of a tactic than anything else.
      You don't need to see similar features in Nokia phones to know that Nokia came up with it. Nokia has alot of patents that never became actual products. So does Apple. And alot of other companies. That's what companies do, protect their ideas even if they will never make it.

      The California computer maker sought to have Nokia's lawsuit dismissed, saying argued that it was not infringing on Nokia's patents... and that even if a court found them guilty of infringing,anyway Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms.


      Thats like saying i didnt steal your car. and if i did, its because you didnt take my lo-ball offer...idiots.
    1. Kroo's Avatar
      Kroo -
      Quote Originally Posted by Blowfish64 View Post
      Are you retarded? They've been in negotiations for 2 years! That's why it's just coming to light now.


      Uhm, yes they did do something different here. They didn't work out an agreement OR share technology. They just stole it. Hence the lawsuits.
      I'd pick my language more carefully MATE. My brother is what you would call a "retard" and it's a highly offensive term and if you were standing in front of me now, you wouldn't be!!! Grow up and pull your f#@kin head in.

      You like to use very inflated and uninformed words and again I would be careful saying anyone stole from anyone or you might be staring down a suit of your own.


      Provide evidence before you shoot your mouth off, little man!!
    1. snap1500's Avatar
      snap1500 -
      Quote Originally Posted by navalynt View Post
      What most of you fail to grasp is that Nokia has spent BILLIONS in R&D on cellular technology and they are recouping those expenses by licensing the technology they develop to other companies. Every other company making GSM/UMTS handsets has either paid for their own R&D or worked out a licensing agreement with Nokia.

      Apple doesn't want to pay for the R&D to develop their own technology nor do they want to pay to use the technology developed by someone else. I would have to call this piracy.

      Apple paid some programmers to develop it's own iPhone OS then took on the hardware "lego style" using bricks of existing technology to put together a new product. Those bricks cost someone else A LOT of money to develop, so is it really so surprising that Nokia is taking legal action after Apple refused to cooperate?

      From the sound of things Nokia has been trying to work with Apple to work out an agreement since the first iPhone came out but Apple just doesn't want to pay the royalties and put credit where it's due.

      Right on. Apple is not a phone company, but a computer company. A newbie stepping into the phone arena and developing perfect working celluar techonolgy? right...like IBM going to make a reliable and efficient car without honda or toyotas fuel saving technology, bmw super handling, or any other already developed technology/ideas.

      Quote Originally Posted by devteamtools View Post
      nokia's phones are utter crap in my opinion. (why do you think the are mostly all cheap?) my two favorite phone companies will always be apple and motorolla. nokia is fighting a losing battle.
      Somebody smack him...

      Quote Originally Posted by ty22 View Post
      First of all, how can you compare a Nokia to a iPhone? It's like a wad of tin foil vs. the holy grail. Second, Nokia is just trying to make itself look good and get money from the best phone maker because they are a fail.
      smacked

      The world would be a better place if there were no accountants and lawyers running things. They're just greedy B,astards.[/QUOTE]

      idiot alert.

      i dont think apple has any accountant at all cause their CEO only got paid $1 for all his hard work. Yup, the world is a better place cause the CEO can't sue apple for this mistake..

      Quote Originally Posted by rhekt View Post
      i guess we all forgot about that super smartphone nokia brought out before the iphone....oh wait they didnt.
      is that all you got?
    1. cpkirkley's Avatar
      cpkirkley -
      Quote Originally Posted by rhekt View Post
      i guess we all forgot about that super smartphone nokia brought out before the iphone....oh wait they didnt.
      Erm... N95 much? How bout the Ngage, launched in 2004 mind you, the first true attempt to merge a gaming device with a phone.

      Nokia has had smartphones out for years, that while not anywhere near the ease of iPhone, Symbian (and UIQ, for all you Sony Ericsson fans out there) were light years better than the WinMo devices. Off the top of my head I can rattle off a dozen of Nokia phones that were "Gotta-have-it" phones (for their day).

      3650s, 8800s, 9500 Communicators, the E60 business phones, N900s, what about the Net Tablet that they were selling like 3 years ago? or the Flip style cell phone with a 3 megapixel camera and CCD flash they released in 2005(N70)? But I guess the idea to combine these things into one device was all Apple? Nokia, Sony, HTC have been making great smartphones for years but never had the penetration because you had to spend 400 plus to get the really good models. Apple just had the sense to price it low enough so mainstreamers wouldnt balk at the price.

      How can you peepee-heads call yourselves tech-junkies when you don't know what came before iPhone? Nokia was, and still is for that matter, HUGE in Europe. Much in the way soccer is the worlds most popular sport but America is too cool to acknowledge it.

      *Embarrassed to be American*
    1. thevmax's Avatar
      thevmax -
      I agree with NAVALYNT. NOKIA has been in the cell phone business for years and years.
      This means they probably developed some proprietary chips and/or software. Why else would the other phone companies be paying NOKIA? Certainly not because it's a nice gesture! Companies like Apple and Microsoft have taken ideas and software and chips and done things without compensating the inventors. This is what happens.
    1. smiska2's Avatar
      smiska2 -
      Quote Originally Posted by FlyingJoey View Post
      I've had cell phones for the last 15 years... I have never owned a Nokia branded phones... They make the ugliest phones ever, how the heck did they get so big?

      Obviously you're very young! Nokia have been and still are a cutting edge company. Their user interface in days gone by was second to none (in fact others tried to copy it's functionality).

      While as you say some of their models were not the prettiest they were all excellent mobile telephones, which many find more important than looks.
    1. Dumi's Avatar
      Dumi -
      Many people are used with stealing, plagiarism, etc etc... And that is what most of the BIG Companys do. But that is as a "Company". Now to see folks here defending Apple´s mischief, its bad!
      No, its sad! (maybe thats what they do also in their day-by-day life).

      Why do most Americans have this higher ego???!

      As far as the WORLD knows (no, i'm not talking about USA, i'm saying all Planet), Siemens and Motorola are the father of mobile chipsets production of all time, and Nokia the gand-father of Mobile Devices Manufacture!

      Hey, you do know what Siemens is, right?!



      Quote Originally Posted by Kroo View Post
      I'd pick my language more carefully MATE. My brother is what you would call a "retard" and it's a highly offensive term
      I would say, yes! "Retard" it's a highly offensive term! But hey, if you are able to "call" here your bother as "retarded", them yes, you are definitely the Retarded one!
    1. Kroo's Avatar
      Kroo -
      Quote Originally Posted by Dumi View Post
      I would say, yes! "Retard" it's a highly offensive term! But hey, if you are able to "call" here your bother as "retarded", them yes, you are definitely the Retarded one!
      Read without biased if you can. I said to the imbecile who called me retarded "my brother is what YOU (to the idiot who used the word retarded at me) would call a retard". People like yourself have NO idea and you just keep using this term to hit out at people you don't even know. I dare you to spend ONE day in an extended care unit for intellectually handicapped people, then call me a retard to my face, and see where you end up. IMBECILE !!! Your user name says it all.
    1. Dumi's Avatar
      Dumi -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kroo View Post
      Read without biased if you can. I said to the imbecile who called me retarded "my brother is what YOU (to the idiot who used the word retarded at me) would call a retard". People like yourself have NO idea and you just keep using this term to hit out at people you don't even know. I dare you to spend ONE day in an extended care unit for intellectually handicapped people, then call me a retard to my face, and see where you end up. IMBECILE !!! Your user name says it all.
      Well, handicapped people, for exe., arent retarded, neither your brother!!! I have handicap friends and i know what the word "retard" means, ok!

      But yes, i'm a "Dumi", that is why i'm here writting to the Inteligents that call their brothers "retarded".
    1. Blowfish64's Avatar
      Blowfish64 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Kroo View Post
      I'd pick my language more carefully MATE. My brother is what you would call a "retard" and it's a highly offensive term and if you were standing in front of me now, you wouldn't be!!! Grow up and pull your f#@kin head in.

      You like to use very inflated and uninformed words and again I would be careful saying anyone stole from anyone or you might be staring down a suit of your own.


      Provide evidence before you shoot your mouth off, little man!!
      Oh noooooo! Apple's going to sue me now! You're the one who said Nokia went straight to their lawyers without trying to talk it out first. Where's your citation, please?
    1. steve-z17's Avatar
      steve-z17 -
      Nokia is just being a big baby...